Cantr II Discussion Forum

Neva wrote:I'm quite sure that all of these players have experienced a lot, but never get fed up with "bad form" as much as they do right now.

So, your main complaint is that you don't feel that En Kell deserves to be able to kill other characters because she isn't role-played sufficiently to your satisfaction?

Neva wrote:Is it that hard to understand what I'm talking about? Weren't my words clear enough to tell that I'm not against, murder and piracy?

Oh, it's clear that you approve of murder and piracy as long as the characters getting murdered are not important, well-established, well role-played characters.
Despite the fact that we are supposed to play "in character," the fact is that every choice we make as players is ultimately a choice made by the player. This doesn't equate to playing OOC, it is just reality. The player is making decisions about the behavior of the character.

I think there is a barrier between you and me, Paintedbyroses, it may be rather cultural, mental or psychological.

I just shared my opinion that I think that I deserve to be able to, about why people are uncomfortable with that particular character. I wouldn't call it a complaint.

I totally support you, and in my opinion stirring the pot -- yes may result in death and despair -- but often fuels more enticing gameplay and action. An attack can suddenly energize a dull sleepy town. A pirate crew can give cantrians a sense of adventure. My best game play has stemmed from conflict. I have never met your character, nor know none of the lore, but it's the compound of actions that lead up to the point of that characters true development and shaping of their personality. To sum up what I'm trying to say, I enjoy playing the villian and they indeed help stimulate roleplay and the surrounding world. Yes it is hard to roleplay an actual battle (depending on the scale), but there can be very good roleplay before and after the action.

Oh, man, I miss the Ice Sisters. Don't get me wrong, En Kell's crew is great, but do any of y'all oldies remember them shanties right before getting chewed on? Good times.

So at what point does a thread like this make it impossible that it's not affecting the game itself? I ask because while it doesn't discuss any specific situations, it is very much is discussing characters who are heavily involved in the game right now. You can private message me because I do not want to cross any lines but it seems that since this thread characters are doing things they might not otherwise had this thread not existed. It feels like this is an influence to make choices that might not be made otherwise.

For me, En Kell has been great. I talk in past tense because I'm not around her world of events anymore, but being true,... It's part of the things this game needs.
Some more indirect approach with some other characters would also work great. After all, it's not just plain evilness the only thing that works for a good thread, but also complex politics, zealotry, corruption, and that kind of things.

I'll preface this by saying that I enjoy what En Kell has brought to the game and that this post is likely going to be a bit repetitive given that this conversation has been going on for a while and leaked outside this thread. That said, here are my 20 cents.

I agree with Rocket Frog that En Kell has provided something this game has lacked. In my opinion, En Kell has provided a source of "classic" storytelling conflict with traditional good/evil dynamics that doesn't involve En Kell being a caricature - I love that she has a system of belief that allows her to be the "good guy" from her perspective rather then the "I kill people because I'm evil" rationale that I've seen in the past. She has also, in my opinion, utilized a sub-optimal playstyle (in terms of mechanical efficiency, not RP) to let characters RP their encounters with her. However, based on what I've read on the forum, she may at one point have violated rules regarding consent and explicit RP. That's unfortunate, but it sounds like that issue occured due to a lack of understanding regarding the rules and has now been resolved.

Some criticisms of the criticisms of En Kell are hyperbolic at best. The idea that En Kell is some form of super evil that is breaking the game is pretty laughable. In terms of evil, cannibals, pirates, psychopaths, rapists, serial killers and other villainous sorts have existed since the start of the game. They've done darker things on a wider scale then her for less reason and with less opportunity to opt-out or even resist. Is she the top villain in the English Zone right now? Based on the public reactions of some community members I think that's a fair assessment, but historically I don't find her to be much of an outlier in terms of pure "evilness". As for mechanically (i.e actually) shutting down locations, that appears to result from OOC emotions locking the fearful players into an imaginary cage, a poor understanding of how much of a threat she actually is in-game (mechanically at least), or some combination of the two.

Some of criticisms of En Kell and her player are simply silly. Villainy is an allowed playstyle, full stop. One of the suggested roles on the front page is that of a pirate. Combat mechanics (dragging/hitting) are in the game and don't require consent. If that's disruptive to your RP or your life then I'm sorry to hear that, but Cantr, as a game, isn't built right if your goal is to hive yourself off from the outside world and play uninterrupted with a handful of like minded players. You can campaign to change that, but I think you'll find the community is pretty conservative about major changes to the game.

Finally, some of the criticisms of En Kell and her player are starting to cross the line (based on the limited number I can see on the forum) from poor form to online harrassment. Calling players of villains sick, depraved, or damaged is rude, hurtful, and, in my opinion, illogical. Are authors who write from a villain's perspective depraved? Are people who participate in evil D and D campaigns damaged? Just because you can get in that mindset, doesn't mean you actually have that mindset. Calling them those things alone would be poor form, but the repetitiveness of it, across multiple threads of this forum at the very least, reads as an attempt to harm the emotional well being of the player and push that player out of the community. I hope they read this and know they're not alone and there are players who appreciate their contribution to the game.

Actually I'm tired of seeing things about the same topic again and again, especially if we consider amount of the supporters of a specific character the ones openly displaying their annoyance is a minority.
I don't approve bullying or name calling against any player, but I also think that we need to see the things from a wide perspective too. Now it turned to : Like this character or you're bad, toxic and elitist vs. If you like this character you're supporter of evil. We have no right to force people to take sides in game, our goal must be making best of it all together, solve its problems. While being objective we also need to think why some players are this much worried and uncomfortable, why the sleepers in the towns considered as spies during the specific times, why some players think that creating an IG defensive force requires OOC otherwise it might be failed, why some events are raising doubts about how they ended...
Cantr is ever changing game like its characters and regularly glorifying or bashing some characters out of the game should be done very carefully to my opinion, even avoided if it's reflecting to Cantr. I assume the said character has changed the RP form partly because of the Ooc reactions too and in an evolving stage so we can't say all critics are bad.

My issue isn't that people are criticising a character - that's fine as long as it is constructive. My problem here is that people who have issues with a character are harassing the player of that character, and that PD (at least on the forums) seems to support the people who are bullying another player - or parrots simple platitudes about getting along, etc., in lieu of telling those players to knock it off. It feels like an incredible double standard right now, because I get the impression that were it any other player, something punitive would have occurred because of this bullying behaviour.

There are not two valid sides to this argument, no matter how you swing it. Bullying and harassment that occur OOC and are directed at another player are never valid. That sort of toxic behaviour needs to be corrected immediately, and yet so far staff have been implictly supportive of it.

That's not a good look.

If you ever go to the previous posts you will see PD were blamed just with the contrary, asking how long will PD ignore the obvious facts etc. I don't understand why telling to get along well is a problem if there is not an insult to any player, that suggests avoiding the fights and using a kind language. It doesn't look nice to accuse people working for free and just trying to make "our" game running for everyone by sacrificing their personal time for us.
I didn't see any staff being supportive of any kind of bullying in the forums nor declared their specific dislike for a certain player. One may report the events, players as Cuddly said herself before. I didn't experience what did the others players see in game and I don't know what motivated them to speak so harshly, this is something PD has to look up. Meanwhile (to my personal idea) all of us need a break from this topic to stay unbiased and play from a character perspective.

A player has been insulted, though. More than that, they have admitted to feeling bullied.

By refusing to directly tell the harassing players to knock it off, staff are being permissive of such behaviour.

As soon as miirk and others dropped in claiming another player was sick and twisted IRL because of their character playstyle, and started bullying dire because they were afraid for their own characters, staff should have popped in and said knock it off. That would have stopped this whole argument from spiralling out across the forum like it has.

Sometimes refusing to take a side is taking a side.

Harassing other players because of the actions of their characters is not okay.

ninja wrote:Oh, man, I miss the Ice Sisters. Don't get me wrong, En Kell's crew is great, but do any of y'all oldies remember them shanties right before getting chewed on? Good times.

You might be thinking of the Whatever Pirates (Lyra Halifax and crew). I sailed with the Ice Sisters for a bit. Their musical tastes were a bit more... modern.

Millhouse wrote:Their musical tastes were a bit more... modern.

The real villains of Cantr

I do find that more modern musical forms can be a bit jarring in terms of immersion, though it really only sticks out when someone is paraphrasing a popular song or rapping. Guess I don't picture (vocalize?) things in my that way unless I'm forced to

Millhouse wrote:

ninja wrote:Oh, man, I miss the Ice Sisters. Don't get me wrong, En Kell's crew is great, but do any of y'all oldies remember them shanties right before getting chewed on? Good times.

You might be thinking of the Whatever Pirates (Lyra Halifax and crew). I sailed with the Ice Sisters for a bit. Their musical tastes were a bit more... modern.

Yeah, I was part of that crew, too! I've been around. Still eating people now, though not being as public about it IG as I was when in the crew...

So, I started a new thread but then I thought that it probably wasn't really enough substance for a new thread so.... even though it's frowned upon, I necro'd this old one Anyway, I came across this great Popular Science article and it made me think of Cantr and recent discussions of bad guys and violent characters in the game.

https://www.popsci.com/story/science/vi ... agination/