Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Achilles
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Achilles » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:20 pm

I still haven't gotten any clarification about the rules surrounding violence and sexual violence. Whatever they are, I feel like every player should be required to read them and sign off on them.


Common sense. OOC is always welcomed before any kind of explicit sexual/violent behavior.

My characters have been involved in "harsh" situations and I always OOC questioned my counterpart if they were alright with "harsh" RP. Always got more affirmative answers, than negative, leading to really precious RP, whether my opponents were defeated or not. In fact, at the end, I also OOC them and congratulated them because of the wonderful RP! In the face of a negative answer, it's simple: I just use the game mechanics and I never use harsh language.

Losing or winning... dying or surviving... no matter the result, the most important thing is to RP it well!

Congrats to all of you who really put a lot of effort in fantastic RP, no matter of the final outcome to your characters...

Have fun! Keep playing for amusement! Always have in mind to respect the others sensitivity and everything will be fine...

Peace!!!!!

:wink:
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Rmak
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Rmak » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Rax wrote:
Rmak wrote:It has backing ;)

Oh, it does? Then please enlighten me. Do you have written statements from players, where they claim they are as violent and sadistic as their characters? Psychological reports from trained experts? Survey data? Anything like that - and remember, you'd need more than one, isolated incidents shouldn't count as proof.

I'm happy to change my tune the moment you have actual backing. Serious accusations like that require serious evidence. They require tact and relevancy. Show me your backing.


Apply your answer to your own previous statement, then wipe the egg off your face.
Quote Wolfsong:
They aren't playing children; they are playing mentally ill people.

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Rax
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Rax » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:21 am

Rmak wrote:
Rax wrote:
Rmak wrote:It has backing ;)

Oh, it does? Then please enlighten me. Do you have written statements from players, where they claim they are as violent and sadistic as their characters? Psychological reports from trained experts? Survey data? Anything like that - and remember, you'd need more than one, isolated incidents shouldn't count as proof.

I'm happy to change my tune the moment you have actual backing. Serious accusations like that require serious evidence. They require tact and relevancy. Show me your backing.


Apply your answer to your own previous statement, then wipe the egg off your face.


I'm not the one making any accusations, so the burden of proof isn't on me. It's as simple as that.
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Shaudawn
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Shaudawn » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:05 pm

Genie wrote:* First of all if Shaudawn is wrong with some of his comments it doesn't erase the right things he said. ...


Thank you, Genie. You make a good observation there and throughout your post. I would like to say that my views and opinions are thawts I put out there, and my attitude is that if they stick, then there's something to that. If they don't, then they are just smoke and ash and are thus harmless. I don't try to win arguments. I will explain and defend my thawts, but if they have meaning, it's not because I said them, but because they resonate in some people. If they don't, then ignore them. But if they do, in some way, then pay attention, slow down, and let us examine why that is.

I have a different way of doing things. I'm creative and weird, and I take both as compliments. I grew up in a story-telling culture, but it is a non-Western way of telling stories. Let me explain by...guess what...a story:

There was an anthropologist who came to study a particular indigenous tribe, and he wanted to get their version of how the world was created. The elders asked, "Are you sure you want to know?" The anthropologist insisted enthusiastically. "It will be a long story," they said. "Are you patient enough?" The anthropologist assured them he had studied for long hours at a time. "The way our people speak is not the way of your people, are you sure?" The anthropologist assured them he had taken many courses in linguistics and was ready. A fourth time, they said, "Each of our elders will tell our story. Are you ready for it?" The anthropologist was delighted because that way, he could get the whole truth. "Yes! I keep telling you, I'm ready, so let's get on with it!" he said.

So, the elders came for him and said, "We are going to tell you how the world was made." They took him to the place where stories are told and told him their story about how the world was created from water, and of the animals and spirits. The story took all night, and in the morning the anthropologist was very tired, but grateful. His notebook was filled with words.

But that evening, the elders came for him and said, "We are going to tell you how the world was made." The anthropologist, still tired, was confused, but he agreed. "This must certainly be an epic," he said. And so the elders took him to the place where stories are told and told him their story about how the world was created and how the people were in a deep hole in the earth and climbed up, up, up through four worlds to get to the one they were in now. The anthropologist was confused. It wasn't an addition as he had thought. It completely contradicted the previous story. But he wrote it all down regardless, and in the morning after another long night, he thanked them and fell into bed.

But later, the elders came for him and said, "We are going to tell you how the world was made." "But you already told me twice. There's more?" The elders shook their heads and simply said, "No, not more." The anthropologist was getting more confused, but he was curious, as most Western scientists are, so he went with them to the place where stories are told. Once there, the elders told him the story of how the people from the sky came from the great star gardens and how the beings of the clouds made the earth and the snow in the place where they live but not how snow was made in other places. The anthropologist wrote it all down, but he had grown confused and tired and frustrated because it was all making less and less sense to him. He was looking for the facts to what he considered their Genesis myth. But it didn't make sense. When he got back to his tent, he grumbled confused and concluded that these people were just so backwards and stupid because they couldn't tell their stories right. They were all contradicting one another.

On the fourth night, the elders came for him and said, "We are going to tell you how the world was made." The anthropologist trudged to the place where stories are told, but when the elders began to tell him about how the people were in darkness and needed fire and asked the animal spirits to get light and sunshine for them, he interrupted them and said, "You are not making any sense! None of your stories work! They all contradict one another. You can't make the world out of water on moment, then earth the next, then air, and then the fire and animal spirits! Where is your Garden of Eden? Where is your snake and apple? Where is your Gilgamesh and Osiris and your Odin? You people don't know how to tell a good story! I can't take this back to the academy, they'll laugh at me because it's not logical. And none of them have a proper ending. Just tell me, which one of these origin stories is true!"

When the anthropologist collapsed in frustration, the oldest grandmother spoke quietly. "They all are," she said. "We keep taking you back here to the place where stories are told because you haven't listened to find the end."



Biin Hejj: I don't get it.

Me: Hello, my sacred clown. How are you this morning?

Biin: Decidedly mixed, oh Writer-of-Profuse-Vagueness! And a bit perturbed because you're stealing my spotlight. How am I going to perform in this post? Huh? *He pokes at me using an accordion, which isn't easy to do but yet he does it and I'm a bit annoyed by it*

Me: Probably not this one, but we have something many do not these days.

Biin: Chocolate-covered donuts with sprinkles on top?

Me: Well, I was going to say patience, but...for you, why not?

Biin: Goodie! Bring on the Earl Grey, my boy, and we shall toast your ...erm... story thingy whatever.

Me: I could use your help for one little bit, though. Do you mind?

Biin: *He jumps up like a loaded jack-in-the-box liberated in all its springy conversion of potential energy into kinetic* DO I MIND? DO I MIND? Do penguins arrange elaborate dinner parties for walruses as a way to make inroads into political office?

Me: Well, not really, but from you, I'll take that as a 'yes'. Yes?

Biin: *He shakes his head* Yes. What do you need me to do?

Me: Easy. Just be yourself. I'm going to illustrate something here, and by doing that, I'm going to pretend to be a police officer that just pulled you over for a broken tail light. You think you can do that?

Biin: *He tries to salute, and it ends up looking more like he's hailing a cab in downtown Mumbai during high tea.* Everything's going to be okay!

Me: *moseys up to Biin's window, knocks on it* License and registration please.

Biin: I REFUSE TO TAKE A BREATHALYZER TEST! YOU NEED A WARRANT TO CHECK FOR DEAD BODIES IN THE TRUNK!

Me: Thank you, Biin. I knew I could count on you.

Biin: I WANT MY LAWYER AND FREE PHONE CALL!!!

Me: No, Biin...we're done. You've helped me illustrate something.

Biin: What? *He gulps down the tea and snarfs the donut as he tries to get his breathing under control."

Me: What do you think that police officer is going to do now? Put yourself in her or his shoes for a moment.

Biin: Hey, I look pretty good in uniform! *He wiggles his eyebrows at me provocatively until he realizes I'm still waiting for an answer.* Oh, well, you'd bet your sweet sexy ass I'm going to search that car and make him walk a straight line while reciting the alphabet backwards while touching his nose with his left foot.

Me: I'm pretty sure that's not how it's done, but I think you get the point.

To use the words of Bill Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew, "Methinks she doth protest too much." In my experience, there are at least three kinds of people who are going to react strongly and negatively to certain things people like me say or write:
  1. The first are the ones who see strong words and jump at them in bitter, strong protest much like a parakeet attacks a mirror. There is something there that needs to be paid attention to. Some molesters, pedophiles, and others with psychotic tenancies act like this, for instance, even if there is really no explicit reason to. I am writing this to those left behind: be careful of these kinds of people, especially in the real world.
  1. The second kind are people who, using our illustration, aren't drunk and don't have anything in their trunk except old newspapers, but who are so focused on themselves and their reputation instead of what is really being said that they jump into a horrible defensive attack mode. To those left behind: be careful of these kinds of people, but for a different reason.
  • The third kind of reactive response are those who, having some kind of political or personal agenda--consciously or unconsciously--and who usually are parroting the pundits on an issue they are associating with. Instead of paying attention to what is really being said, they jump to defend whatever their god demands of them. To those left behind: be careful of these kinds of people, especially if they work for the first two kinds; and contemplate what kinds of gods are acting in the world and in ourselves to evoke all of our responses.

The tactic of "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit" is for lawyers in a court of law, and is a tactic now used too much as the false antidote to the overabundance of fake news and the like. In engineering, there are failsafe structures and factors of safety not because it is proved that some catastrophic failure is proven to happen, but because on the one chance that something does, there is a safety net. In cases of social predators, you can't wait until someone gets victimized and blame the victim. You question patterns. Watch. Think of how to make sure there is a failsafe, and if asked for your background check or ID, it's because we're trying to keep people safe, not because we specifically suspect you are a bad person...unless you are... fruits, not just proofs, because even facts can be arranged to tell a story, yet beware of bad apples.

Biin: So, that's a 'no' on my performing this post?

Me: No. Not this post. Maybe some other time. We've got patience and ability to reflect on things. I do wonder, however, who you would use your free phone call on.

Biin: *He grins like an egret who just discovered the joys of league bowling night* Iktome! I would have called Coyote, but he totally botched up my last case and I had to spend the night in the drunk tank.

Me: Say good night, Biin.

Biin: Good night, Biin!
--Shaudawn

"We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." --Picasso

"Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise. " --M. Atwood
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cutecuddlydirewolf
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby cutecuddlydirewolf » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:36 pm

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than settle a question without debating it."

-Joseph Joubert


"No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding."

-James E. Talmage
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computaertist
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby computaertist » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:01 am

Shaudawn, if you ever publish anything, please let me know. I want to buy it.
Mark Twain wrote:Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.
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Money
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Money » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:47 pm

Personally, I’ve enjoyed this thread. It’s an interesting creative writing exercise and exploration of Cantr through a character’s voice/viewpoint which can’t be done in game. Compared to a traditional post it’s difficult to parse, but, as far as I can tell, the point isn’t winning arguments.

I do think the warnings about those who strongly disagree with you are either disingenuous or seriously misguided. This thread touches on many of the most polarizing issues of this community (“permissible” play styles, how to integrate consent into RP, the combat system, etc.) and society at large (mainly how violence/sex in digital media affects RL attitudes/actions). Of course you’re going to get some strong disagreements! Insinuating that those who strongly disagree with you could have an insidious agenda or be monstrous deviants takes it too far IMO.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes next!

Edit: polarized to polarizing
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cutecuddlydirewolf
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby cutecuddlydirewolf » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:11 pm

Money wrote:I do think the warnings about those who strongly disagree with you are either disingenuous or seriously misguided. This thread touches on many of the most polarizing issues of this community (“permissible” play styles, how to integrate consent into RP, the combat system, etc.) and society at large (mainly how violence/sex in digital media affects RL attitudes/actions). Of course you’re going to get some strong disagreements! Insinuating that those who strongly disagree with you could have an insidious agenda or be monstrous deviants takes it too far IMO


That's specifically the issue I take here. I think this is an important topic to discuss, and consider as a community. But I absolutely draw the line at demonizing and insulting an entire group of people without any sort of foundation to stand on.

I'll also be blunt. It's childish to say that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "pedophile" or some other horrible monster. No, people disagree because they have different experiences than you do. It's ignorant to assume that your view is the only acceptable one.
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Money
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Money » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:31 pm

Personally, I've never experienced any issues with players bringing my characters into graphic roleplay without my consent. To be fair, I don't play many characters in the first place, and I don't play characters which would be involved in hyper-sexual or violent storylines under normal conditions. All my near and dear characters have also been in pretty populated regions, so that likely contributes to a more "regulated" environment as well.

While I understand a desire to avoid such playstyles, in an open ended game like Cantr I don't think sex and violence should be banned. Players should be made aware of their ability to opt out of such stories, but I think it's fair to say a decent portion of the playerbase enjoys them. In a game with a declining player population, we need to keep our tent open to all kinds of people.
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Shaudawn
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Shaudawn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:37 am

Biin Hejj: Ah-hem. Mr. Author. I think you've forgotten why you wrote this thread.

Me: Well, it was to...

Biin Hejj: My songs! My songs.

Me: I've made my point, which is sometimes getting missed. Oh, well. I said what I said. So, I guess there's only one thing to do then.

Biin Hejj: *He gleefully grabs his guitar and straps on the strap, grinning in eager anticipation, pick poised over the strings which nearly vibrate themselves.*

Me: Release the Biin!

Biin Hejj: #crickets# *deadpan* "What now?"

Me: *half-hearted fist pumps in the air* You know...like "Release the Kraken"?

Biin Hejj: *He gives me a look like I just insulted his non-existent grandmother and all of her penguins.* You leave the funny stuff to me, m'kay?

Me: Sure, Biin.

Biin Hejj: On with the liner notes, then.

===============================================================================
3. GROUCHY RADIO LAD
((NOTES: I didn't have anyone in particular in mind when I wrote this. After Biin played it on the radio, though, Shaudawn in Olip got this reaction from Avren (Marian) like it was about her character. Actually, it wasn't. It was pretty generic after hearing so many grouchy voices on the radio reacting to this or that. I'm pretty sure my inspriation wasn't one of Marian's characters, but I guess I don't really know. Anyway, this wasn't about her. That...uh... came later...

No song inspired this other than a very general rockabilly like Elvis might sing, only I wasn't thinking of any Elvis song. I guess for a while there was this group in the 80's called the Stray Cats, but again, this didn't have any of their songs in mind while writing this.))

Biin Hejj:

You know, I've been told that my voice is like the most beautiful of all birds...the swan. *clears throat* Okay, this next song is called "Grouchy Radio Lad" in which I take on the character voice of some of the grumpiest radio contributors in all of our fair isles. I just want to make it clear that the views and expressions on the Biin Radio Show are not necessarily that of this station, this empire, this island, or even of this particular performer. Electronic transmission of this broadcast cannot be recorded or duplicated without expressed written consent of the Cantr Broadcasting Company. However, implied oral consent is okay. #strum# Alright. Enough of my yakkin'. Let's boogie!

#bouncy rockabilly beat/tune#
#verse A chords#
Well I was working by the radio, didn't really have a choooiice...;
When all of the sudden, I hear that stupid voooiice...;
Some idiot was callin' 'bout something we all knooooow;
So I picked up the microphone and let my opinion shooooow; ---

#verse B chords#
Well I called him a psycho and I called her a bitch;
I argued and I argued 'til my ears began to itch;
Called 'em bastards, sluts and dullards. Idiots and thieves;
Called 'em every sort of name, but still they wouldn't leave!;
I just can't seem to figure out why they all don't shut their face;
So I pressed my thumb down firmly, their names I would debase; ---

#verse A chords#
Well I was working by the radio, didn't really have a saaaaaay...;
Why would they build a smelter next to a radio...anywaaaaaay...?;
When a whiner with a studder and sob and a ...desperate pleeeeeea;
Came on with a squeaky voice like she was talkin'...just to meeeeee; ---

#verse B chords#
Well I called her a baby, melodramatic to the core;
I imitated her voice badly, then called another gal a whore;
I think I'm rather funny; won't give my real name;
Can't tell the world it's me cuz we all sound just the same;
No one can seem to figure out why they all can't shut their gums;
So I taunt an' tease an' ridicule, 'til this smelting work is done; ---

*shouts* GEE-TAR!

~burr-na-na, burr-na-na, bwah-bah...buhbuh bwaaaaaaah~
~diddily-diddily-doodeedoo, bwah-bah...wuhwuh whaaaaaaah~
~doodee-dunduh-dumbly-doodoo, whaa-whaa, wantwahwaaaaaa~ WHOOOO! ---
[*gyrates in a manner not approved by most elderly Cantrians*]

#verse A chords#
A-wella-wella-Well I'm a-working by the radio, didn't really have a plaaaaan...;
So far I started two wars between some city and a claaaaan...;
'Til I realized I wasn't the only worker...in that plaaaaace...;
So now I'm sittin' here in jail trying to work off what they did to my faaaaace...; ---

#verse B chords#
Well I think that your all morons, you think that I'm the shits;
I'll get here on the radio, and tell you where it fits;
Think that I'm so above you all and won't think that I'm the cause;
And I know I'm not the only one who won't stop flapping his jaws;
I whine and complain, 'bout the whiners on this device;
I give it out so freely, but won't take my own advice; ---

~burr-na-na, burr-na-na, diddily-diddily-doodeedoo...~ YEAH!
~piddily-piddily poo-poo, lahlah, doot-doot-dooooooo~
~biddily-biddily bumpbah, bwampt-bah.~ *THWAP!* ~Whatwah-wantwahwaaaaaa~
~TWANNNNNNGGGGGG~ *rimshot* ---

Thank you, Cantrland! Good night!

===============================================================================

Me: More of Biin Hejj's Greatest Hits when time allows. Until then...

Biin Hejj: RELEASE THE BIIN!

Me: Wait, what? I thought you said that wasn't funny.

Biin Hejj: It's not funny when you, do it, my dear boy. *He rocks back on his heals with a smile spanning ear to ear.*
--Shaudawn

"We all know that art is not the truth, art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." --Picasso

"Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise. " --M. Atwood
Jaxon
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Jaxon » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:05 am

So is killing ever ok in Cantr?
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Bmot
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Bmot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:35 am

Jaxon wrote:So is killing ever ok in Cantr?


Of course, as long as you do it following this easy 27-step program Shaudawn will publish next spring :mrgreen: :lol:
Richard Dawkins wrote:We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?
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Naranjita
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Naranjita » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:22 am

I'm not aware of that raising violence thing as I barely played last years, but I can see the point of what he says about society becoming morbous, pushing things too far in the sake of fun or amusement. Evil chars make the green worls deeper, too, but some stuff should never have room in a pretended fun game, no need for rules. Common sense and a bit of good taste when it comes to writing wouldn't hurt. But seems society is short on these two things lately, maybe that's why everything needs to be so explicit. The concept of 'explicit' has been raped itself -just see any movie-, and we're living in a rage era in mass media. That's a molotov coctail. I understand that if you play a game to evade from that RL garbage, watching the same patterns ingame makes you grow tired and willingless.

I think I barely met Shawdawn's characters ingame, but I loved everything my chars read from theirs, and while I read this thread I wish my English was better... These posts reminded me of why I loved this game. People who can make good rp even all alone make me hat off, and this is a really creative way to express himself and say goodbye to his creations.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate"
hyrle
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby hyrle » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:42 pm

As a player who stopped playing the game, I'd like to add my two cents to this discussion. (And I'm a couple months late because I don't stop in here often any more. My wife still plays but I've chosen not to.) For me, I quit because I stopped feeling creative. I had played good characters, I had played evil characters, I had built towns, I had raided towns. I had sailors, mayors, pirates, traders, peace-lovers , lovers, haters and troublemakers - and characters who were combinations of those things. But after having "done it all" and even sent characters deep into foreign lands - I just felt there really wasn't anything new for me to want to do. And so the game stopped being fun to me. And when a game's no longer fun, I no longer play it.

To me, that's not a commentary on the community (which is great) or the game (which is interesting and unique) but on me and how I play games. This game held my attention for far longer than most games.
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Genie
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Re: Can't take it anymore; thus reacheth thy denouement

Postby Genie » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:20 pm

hyrle wrote:As a player who stopped playing the game, I'd like to add my two cents to this discussion. (And I'm a couple months late because I don't stop in here often any more. My wife still plays but I've chosen not to.) For me, I quit because I stopped feeling creative. I had played good characters, I had played evil characters, I had built towns, I had raided towns. I had sailors, mayors, pirates, traders, peace-lovers , lovers, haters and troublemakers - and characters who were combinations of those things. But after having "done it all" and even sent characters deep into foreign lands - I just felt there really wasn't anything new for me to want to do. And so the game stopped being fun to me. And when a game's no longer fun, I no longer play it.

To me, that's not a commentary on the community (which is great) or the game (which is interesting and unique) but on me and how I play games. This game held my attention for far longer than most games.

I've just turned from the corner of quitting the game in the last months of 2018, but sadly witnessed some great losses during that. Wish you could consider returning. even though you can be a problem too I know your presence would create new things. Creative doesn't mean weird or something not seen usually. I think you know that well.
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.
Edgar Allan Poe

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