Why Cantr failed

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Estaar
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Estaar » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:07 pm

Millhouse wrote:I think a PvP zone might work well in Cantr. Designate some island where people can play as violent as they want with few restrictions while keeping other zones good and nerfed. You'd probably see tribes rise and fall like in the old days. Maybe spawn a new island with zero ports so you can't sail to or from. You can spawn there and you live and die on that island. Make it accessable to all language groups.


Wow. I find those very interesting ideas. And this is not sarcasm. [and I'm talking in my own name, and not in PD's]
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:07 pm

I don't think anyone is advocating death because he/she (the player) is a blood-thirsty maniac who just wants to kill for the thrill of it. There are much better games where you can do that. Death, whether violent or not, keeps the game alive. It shakes things up where they are now stagnant. It allows for the rise and fall of power where now we just have an undefeatable power structure.

Of course, if the player is presently heavily invested in that power structure, they don't want to see any change which will challenge it or risk the lives of their characters. They are, in effect, the 1% in Cantr - the rich, the elite, the powerful. They are keeping any new players from enjoying and staying with Cantr because their characters are relegated to the downtrodden worker class. Even if they manage to get a house and a car and some stuff...is that fun? Is that interesting? Is that worth the investment of time it requires?

The typical response to boredom and/or economic inequality is violent anarchy (or assassination or a convenient plague, maybe) but that is impossible as Cantr now stands. Cantr is a story and there is no story without conflict. Every novel you've ever read, every movie you've ever seen had conflict - often tragic conflict. There's the word! Cantr has no tragedy. Well, it does, but it's in the form of the wasted lives of the underclass and the silent players who leave out of boredom.

It seems there is a major impasse:

1) Things can stay the way they are to retain the long-term players who are happy with their beloved characters living their established lives. Adding various forms of death could kill off their characters and make them leave the game.

or

2) Things can change. Death can become a possibility - whether through violence, illness, aging or whatever. This would probably make the game more interesting for new players. It would help to fulfill Cantr's promise that a character can become "anything they want to be..." Maybe then the player and character population would increase - even with the loss of some awesome older players.

I don't think we can have it both ways. Even if no changes are ever made, established players will slowly quit and English language Cantr will die because there will be no one left to play.

Odds are, it will be #1, so don't get too worried.
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Slowness_Incarnate
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Slowness_Incarnate » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 pm

I'd have no reason to make new characters as my older characters died. Once their stories were over I would have nothing to play for.
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raspberrytea
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby raspberrytea » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:46 pm

Slowness_Incarnate wrote:I'd have no reason to make new characters as my older characters died. Once their stories were over I would have nothing to play for.


This seems like more reason to change things. Feels like a lot of us are playing in spite of the bad things, rather than because it's actually a good game? Cantr has some magical possibilities and there's nothing quite like it, but no new players are going to stick with the rest of the nonsense if they can't see that.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Slowness_Incarnate » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:52 pm

Even if changes were made I still wouldn't make new characters to replace the old.
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Neva
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:34 am

Not a single player who posted a message on this topic could deny the existence of OOC cooperation leading the main story of the game.

The cliques are already attacking some relatively elaborated roleplays which stand even slightly distinctive among others.

If murdering one was easier, what could them stop getting rid of all the interesting chars, because they're a threat for their position as Super Role Players?

We all know most of the devastating violent acts have been orchestrated OOCly.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Millhouse » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:03 am

Neva wrote:Not a single player who posted a message on this topic could deny the existence of OOC cooperation leading the main story of the game.

The cliques are already attacking some relatively elaborated roleplays which stand even slightly distinctive among others.

If murdering one was easier, what could them stop getting rid of all the interesting chars, because they're a threat for their position as Super Role Players?

We all know most of the devastating violent acts have been orchestrated OOCly.


I deny seeing any real evidence of it in game where I have characters. Seriously it's been the same for at least the last eight months for me, which is to say pretty quiet with short bursts of activity, standard drama, more deaths, sprinkled with quirky new memorable character spawns. Absolutely nothing I've seen in game has led me to believe there's some massive coordination occurring.

I'm not on Discord. I don't know has anything to do with it. It just looks to me like you're all getting worked up over something that's probably happening in a town where perhaps a lot of you have a character, or maybe a bit larger region but still not wide spread.

Also, what is this main story you speak of. Since when did we have one of those?
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cutecuddlydirewolf
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby cutecuddlydirewolf » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:29 am

Neva wrote:Not a single player who posted a message on this topic could deny the existence of OOC cooperation leading the main story of the game.

The cliques are already attacking some relatively elaborated roleplays which stand even slightly distinctive among others.

If murdering one was easier, what could them stop getting rid of all the interesting chars, because they're a threat for their position as Super Role Players?

We all know most of the devastating violent acts have been orchestrated OOCly.


I honestly don't really see it either. I haven't seen any mass coordination to do much of anything in the game, let alone plot against individuals. And I don't think anyone really wants to get rid of the really interesting characters. Those are what make the game fascinating.
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raspberrytea
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby raspberrytea » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:29 am

Neva wrote:Not a single player who posted a message on this topic could deny the existence of OOC cooperation leading the main story of the game.


I literally have no idea what people are talking about when they say "OOC cooperation" (outside of very very old massacre events), nor what the "main story" is! And I really do want to understand, because maybe it's something I'm inadvertantly participating or propogating without even being involved in OOC cooperation.

Neva wrote:The cliques are already attacking some relatively elaborated roleplays which stand even slightly distinctive among others.


I also would really like to understand what you mean because I haven't seen this (or just haven't noticed, again).

Any further context would really be appreciated because I feel like I must be missing something huge in the game dynamics. :(
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:44 am

With the main story, I was trying to reference the ongoing story, the history of the life in game.

curious wrote:I am struggling with a couple of characters because what 'I' know OOC, they clearly don't and separation of these two sources of knowledge is becoming plain annoying... and
There is an increasing evidence base of what can only be viewed as some kind of 'player dislike' in the game now and I don't like it. Sure, you can 'hem and haw' all you like about this being vague but, it will/should make more sense to some than others.


PaintedbyRoses wrote:Taking your two points as one, I have become increasingly aware of OOC influence in the game, as well.

From observing the interactions of the characters, I believe that most, if not all of the SRPs know each other OOC, know each other's characters and the established characters then provide major support to the newspawn SRP characters. Also, if an SRP is visiting for trade, they get spectacularly generous deals and gifts from their new SRP "friends."


Tiamo wrote:PaintedbyRoses, curious, if all this happens as described, it is a blatant CRB.


Moonflame wrote:This is not CRB, it's how the game is played. Kudos Roses for bringing up your points, they deserve their own thread.

I expect it is rare that a player is deliberately helping another.


curious wrote:Currently, the game seems to have a critical mass of players who... have to be the best, the smartest, the 'loudest' (by that, I mean have the strongest presence) and so on... they are essentially trying to 'win' a game that doesn't have a high score or a finishing line.

If there are conversations and/or some kind of encouragement taking place about this 'winning'..? Those 'have' to be taking place OOC.


Chris wrote:One or more OOC cliques seem to exist. I haven't named any of my living characters (though maybe an astute observer could guess one or more of them), but it seems pretty common for people to exchange character information through this forum, PM, IRC, Discord, etc. Even if it isn't a CRB, it still changes the game a lot for those who are tightly networked with other players vs. those who aren't.


curious wrote:This is how people seem to play now (an example... condoning what their chars do via OOC endorsement). I have gotten tied up in OOC dialogue about chars in the game and I actually hate it!


PaintedbyRoses wrote:I only have two characters who are in active towns where they have other characters to talk to. In one of them, I just realized that every other character in the town is part of the OOC-Cooperation crowd. Also, I have this funny feeling that they know my character is played by me.

It's like waking up to discover everyone in your town is a pod-person. I mean this not in the "aliens took over their bodies" way but as in, "They are not who I thought they were but secretly sinister while pretending to be nice" way. I can see that my character will never be given a chance there and there is no place to go - they control every town.


PaintedbyRoses wrote:With such a small player base and so few English speaking populated islands, it's so easy to tell what is happening. You players who have been playing for years (and are not part of the OOC clique) don't notice because you don't care. You aren't really playing the game any more. You're just treading water for old times sake. But I think many or most or all new players have the same experience I'm having. And so they quit after a short time of fruitless, dull character lives. I know someone will say, "You have to be patient, you can't have it all right away" but it's not the slowness, it's the gradual recognition that their characters don't, and won't ever, have a chance to prosper (or revolt or create or be evil or etc. etc. etc.), EVER because they are ignored or even bullied by the only active players in the game.


curious wrote:These players who conspire OOC, even just chat about chars but to an extent that their IC changes (something that 'older' players do, yes but seem able to avoid this conflict) have torn the soul from this environment for me... they have destroyed the 'art' and because they don;t value it... they value in-game praise and they have to be the successful people... they fundamentally... can NOT play a life without this. They are incapable of it.


Genie wrote:About OOC cooperations...I certainly believe there's some OOC going on in the game, however from my experience I know not all groups are oocly stimulated. One of my characters has close bonds with a bunch of people and I don't even know all of their players. I'm not saying to justify anything about myself, giving an example to Cantr possibilities.


These are some of the quotes on the topic, about OOC cliques. I know there are people conspiring OOCly about the game, characters and players (Why players?). Which characters do you think they would take down if killing a character was easier. They'll use the violent characters to get rid of the ex boyfriends who cheated on their other character. They'll use it as an opportunities to kill the non-clique member town leaders. Because they're weird people. I don't get the motivation, I really don't.

Millhouse wrote:Absolutely nothing I've seen in game has led me to believe there's some massive coordination occurring.


cutecuddlydirewolf wrote:I honestly don't really see it either. I haven't seen any mass coordination to do much of anything in the game, let alone plot against individuals.


It doesn't have to be a -mass- coordination. If we'd return to the old system it will take two characters to kidnap a quite strong good fighter. 1 for a weak one. And you say it's hard to kill people? It isn't. One of my characters took a shot at a thief who was trying to break into its boat, a couple of days ago. My efficient fighter moderately strong character took 1/3 of the wannabe thief's HP. It takes 3 people already for an instant kill. Even less... depending on the strength of the characters.

raspberrytea wrote:
Neva wrote:The cliques are already attacking some relatively elaborated roleplays which stand even slightly distinctive among others.


I also would really like to understand what you mean because I haven't seen this (or just haven't noticed, again).

Any further context would really be appreciated because I feel like I must be missing something huge in the game dynamics. :(


I wasn't talking about the physical attack. They're ignored or they never get the support they needed.
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Neva
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:51 am

I don't think Cantr failed. It was just surprising to see this violence appetite following all the vents about OOC cooperation. I was just trying to emphasize it.
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Postby Neva » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:54 am

(Edited due to the double post)
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:18 am

I'm actually with Neva on this.
I also think saying you haven't seen it, when others have doesn't deny its existence (OOC conspiring... cooperation... call it what you like0

It can be subtle, often either placing people in a double bind with their characters and or the simultaneous attacking of one player in an OOC platform whilst flattering and gaining favour of others... You go and work it out and if you're happy with it... get on with it... The point however, remains valid.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Millhouse » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:11 pm

I am denying that it exists everywhere, as it's been alluded.

PaintedbyRoses wrote:I can see that my character will never be given a chance there and there is no place to go - they control every town.


Neva wrote:Not a single player who posted a message on this topic could deny the existence of OOC cooperation leading the main story of the game.


Chris wrote:One or more OOC cliques seem to exist.


curious wrote:Currently, the game seems to have a critical mass of players who... [play OOCly]


Going by these quotes, it sounds like you're all saying that this behavior is happening rampantly on all corners of the game, which is what I am denying seeing any evidence of. I have two town leader characters and I don't coordinate ooc so it can't be said that these supposed people in control are in control of every town. I doubt very seriously that other towns I'm in are controlled in any way by some nefarious ooc clique. Again I'm not on Discord and obviously not in the same towns in-game as you.
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:49 pm

You begin with a denial and finish with a caveat a to why it might not be useful?
Are you familiar with the concept of the 'lesser-spotted' black swan..? And it's effects on the statement that 'all swans are white'..?

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