Why Cantr failed

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Wolfsong
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Wolfsong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:03 am

If combat and dragging were redesigned to encourage more use, the game would immediately get more interesting because the status quo could be turned on its head. But, again, staff don't want that, as it threatens their own characters and the entrenched veteran characters they play with. And, honestly, if the game isn't going to market or advertise itself, then staff probably should try to appease veteran players and themselves first over design the game to appeal more to new players... Because if people leave in an angry huff, no one will join up to replace them.
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:03 am

Leaving aside my previous rant, I think the major failing in Cantr right now is lack of death. Characters are basically immortal unless they choose to die. Some are so ancient we don't even know how old they are and yet they don't role play the ravages of old age, usually. Immortality takes the flavor out of life and leads to hedonism.

I believe that in RL, if we somehow achieved immortality, life would loose all meaning. We need the knowledge of eventual aging and death to make us appreciate the time we have and the people who are in our lives. I think it would be nice if we lived to be about 200 with minimal aging effects and then quickly deteriorated and died but that's just my personal preference. As humans, we need death. We can't step outside of the cycle of life and death without removing ourselves from the natural world. Eternal spring is tedious. The death of loved ones, human and animal, adds depth to our souls. We need to know that we could die at any time and that we will eventually die and then to love life anyway. I can't explain why it's so important but I'm sure someone has.

Cantrians need death, too. As awful as it sounds, wars, massacres, fatal accidents, senseless attacks, contagious fatal diseases, etc. would provide the spice of life to Cantr. It's not just the items and resources that need to crumble and disappear, it's the characters. Make way, make room, for new life. Granted, some players might quit if their favorite characters or loved ones died, but, ironically, c'est la vie.
"All stories, if continued far enough, end in death, and he is no true-story teller who would keep that from you." ~ ERNEST HEMINGWAY, Death in the Afternoon
Last edited by PaintedbyRoses on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jos Elkink
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Jos Elkink » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:05 am

PaintedbyRoses wrote:Cantrians need death, too. As awful as it sounds, wars, massacres, fatal accidents, senseless attacks, contagious fatal diseases, etc. would provide the spice of life to Cantr. Granted, some players might quit if their favorite characters or loved ones died, but, ironically, c'est la vie.


So earlier we concluded buildings and vehicles should expire more frequently - and now we're saying characters should too :-)

I tend to agree.

And the violence levels are indeed too low, in my mind, at the moment.
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Chris
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Chris » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:31 pm

The combat system is completely unfit for a game in which active players typically log in once or twice a day. Design a combat system and a travel system (for chasing) that allow the once-per-day player to be on equal footing with the player who is online all the time. Until those are done, more violence will just provide temporary entertainment for a few players until the prey population presses the X.

Or the whole game could be redesigned to be played while logged in, as opposed to sitting around and waiting for timers to increment. No, that won't happen.
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:34 pm

Can't it go back to the way it used to be? It sounds like players were having fun then. Not that I actually understand how it was.
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Chris
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Chris » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:54 pm

I have not made new characters in years. I have irrational attachments to existing characters so I keep playing them. But once they are dead, I will be done with Cantr. I may or may not be alone in this situation.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Millhouse » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:01 pm

Jos Elkink wrote:
PaintedbyRoses wrote:Cantrians need death, too. As awful as it sounds, wars, massacres, fatal accidents, senseless attacks, contagious fatal diseases, etc. would provide the spice of life to Cantr. Granted, some players might quit if their favorite characters or loved ones died, but, ironically, c'est la vie.


So earlier we concluded buildings and vehicles should expire more frequently - and now we're saying characters should too :-)

I tend to agree.

And the violence levels are indeed too low, in my mind, at the moment.


Limited lifetimes is something that has been suggested many times, often rejected, in various forms over the years. I think the main argument against is that the playerbase is mainly where it's at now because of the loyal players attached to their old characters. If the old characters die due to limited lifetimes it's expected there would be an even more rapid decline in the playerbase. It might be more fun but would probably have a net negative effect.
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Genie
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Genie » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 pm

My long post got lost in the void while caring a couple of things together. Here it is again.

I'm surprised to see how many of the players seem so eager to be able killing easily just for the sake of oh so funny violence. I have/had violent chars and still many wouldn't mind killing if a necessity arises. I can't understand what kind of joy killing more people would bring life to the game. This will probably just give a temporary satisfaction to a few players and at the end things will be more deadly. We have verbal violence and it makes people quit, characters suicide. Many characters die when they're not fed, many spawn and only say their names before their end comes. We also have some towns even training wasters in public is not allowed contraddiction between these two look like two sharp ends to me.
If we play violent chars we can't choose who to kill oocly (We're Pirates we do everything we want, we don't need a reason to kill.) and I seriously wonder what kind of spark would appear if some ancient or young and ambitions chars got killed. For example you killed a known businessman, an artist who made an impact in the game and still making, a town leader who helped many newspawns, a poet, a tailor, a good trader, loved partner of someone(not taling about "Hi, I'm in love with you relationships", talking about an earned love at the end of some time and rp). Do you think that player would feel more connected to the game and play more actively after losing unique chars which he/she can't replace in the same way because it's against the rules? A violent character can't choose who to kill like a vampire biting only bad people, a prey is a pray a hunt is a hunt. Anyway there's nothing keeps a player from getting his/her char killed. Some violence can be provoked and there will be a death in the end. But I guess this is not satisfying like being the killing one yourself. Then in this case maybe some of us can sacrifice a few chars to be killed so other players can happily have their violence.
We still have that difference between the pro style players who understood the game dynamics even though they're new players and capable to adapt with the differences and some new or slow players are still trying to survive in game. Pro players make demands from their perspectives and they feel entitled to do so.
About OOC cooperations...I certainly believe there's some OOC going on in the game, however from my experience I know not all groups are oocly stimulated. One of my characters has close bonds with a bunch of people and I don't even know all of their players. I'm not saying to justify anything about myself, giving an example to Cantr possibilities.
I quit the game before and I had sleepy periods too. Just a few mine have been killed by the others, some starved in their sleeps and I killed some because of the drama surrounding them. Those couldn't find another exit no matter how long they struggled. They tried, they hoped and at the end they quit fighting. Unlike many games, Cantr has permanent death.
Call me a bad player, call me weak hearted or old fashioned, bu I'm just trying to see things in a wide perspective and I would be eager to make different things to make Cantr more enjoyable. I see cantrians as smarter and creative people compared to the players of other games and I'm sure there can be other solutions instead of making everyting fragile and letting them to die.
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Tiamo
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Tiamo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Allowing violence for the sake of violence is bad. I agree with that. But the total absence of violence is not good either. It turns the game into a pet-caring type of game (your chars being your pets).

I think wars and violence should be possible, even viable in some situations, but characters should at the same time have ways to (more or less) protect themselves, at a cost.
What if characters could wear armor/protective clothes (raising their defense level), but while they are wearing it, their project working speed is lower (down big time when wearing plate mail)? Or characters have the option of being alert as a project-type action, which allows them to (automatically) run inside a building when attacked/dragged, before this attack can be effected? Or a character could 'protect' another character as a project? That way characters can choose their own 'safety level'.
I think ...
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sherman
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby sherman » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:04 pm

Wars just need active players and reason. We often lack those. Why wage war if you can barely even run your own town?
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
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Genie
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Genie » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:09 pm

sherman wrote:Wars just need active players and reason. We often lack those. Why wage war if you can barely even run your own town?

Because the gods want blood? They will grant us with new life and success when enough chars died and the old players quit. :D
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Pony_Huetchen
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Pony_Huetchen » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Why is this discussion so binary? Either everyone has a peaceful and internal life or you have to prepare for war and early death?
What is with all the grey zones?
How about making thieving easier? Now you have to take your stuff and run or be prepared to fight and die for it. Where is the hiding things in bags? (Seriously, why can we see in other peoples bags? Thats just illogial...) Where is the pick-pocketing?

The only type of non-violent criminal you can play right now is maybe a grifter. And even that is difficult, because people remember you from seeing you once...
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Pony_Huetchen wrote:Why is this discussion so binary? Either everyone has a peaceful and internal life or you have to prepare for war and early death?
What is with all the grey zones?
How about making thieving easier? Now you have to take your stuff and run or be prepared to fight and die for it. Where is the hiding things in bags? (Seriously, why can we see in other peoples bags? Thats just illogial...) Where is the pick-pocketing?

The only type of non-violent criminal you can play right now is maybe a grifter. And even that is difficult, because people remember you from seeing you once...

There are criminals in the game. I know of one, at least.
The problem is that without the radio working they just move a couple of towns away and nobody knows. They then simply become model citizens again.
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Genie
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Genie » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm

Pony_Huetchen wrote:Why is this discussion so binary? Either everyone has a peaceful and internal life or you have to prepare for war and early death?
What is with all the grey zones?
How about making thieving easier? Now you have to take your stuff and run or be prepared to fight and die for it. Where is the hiding things in bags? (Seriously, why can we see in other peoples bags? Thats just illogial...) Where is the pick-pocketing?

The only type of non-violent criminal you can play right now is maybe a grifter. And even that is difficult, because people remember you from seeing you once...

It is possible to play a violent character and it is a form of rp too. My problem is with showing that as a solution. I don't like too sensitive game play either. I agree with you about the bags. Anyway Cantr always had its ups and downs with different periods, I hope we will have some good time again.
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Millhouse
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Millhouse » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:02 pm

I used to have a violent character but staff got so involved that it just wasn't worth it. I probably can't even go in to all the details here. I'm guessing I'm not alone and probably this contributes to why there are fewer violent characters than in the past.

I think a PvP zone might work well in Cantr. Designate some island where people can play as violent as they want with few restrictions while keeping other zones good and nerfed. You'd probably see tribes rise and fall like in the old days. Maybe spawn a new island with zero ports so you can't sail to or from. You can spawn there and you live and die on that island. Make it accessable to all language groups.

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