Why Cantr failed

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Neva
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am

I see so many people who quit the game and for so many different reasons, lately.

Some of them weren't able to see the self-destructive side of OOC-Cooperation until it's too late and they ended up regretting each line they write for their revealed characters. Because it's never as magical as it was when people know the wizard behind the curtain.

Some of them escaped from the OOC harassment on Forum and Discord.

Some of them did quit because of the OOC induced Mary Sue or bitch factor. Not being a Mary Sue doesn't mean being a bitch and in Cantr, bitches became a new uniform which gets more boring every day. Besides we have a growing army of factory-made character archetype "Hello, I'm 21 years old and so sad because I lost my fiancee (Wow! When?) maybe you can comfort me in your strong arms. *G&W*"

I agree with Curious on his hypothesis of the newly invented player motivation "winning the game", just because I can't come up with a better explanation and I have no idea how to stop it.
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Jos Elkink
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Jos Elkink » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:33 am

PaintedbyRoses wrote:Jos, you could be like the Zeus of Cantr and smite the cities with lightning bolts, destroying their houses and fancy goods.


Well, the direction my thinking goes is twofold: 1) All objects, including buildings and vehicles, should deteriorate when not used. Repairing a building or vehicle should not take more effort than just being inside and should go much faster than deterioration, but it means really abandoned places disappear. 2) Make animals much more violent in certain islands, at a certain minimum distance from original spawning locations, so that large swathes of land that are currently not really inhabited remain largely uninhabitable. I want to reduce the spread of characters we currently have, but in a natural way.

And probably associated with that re-introducing fixed locations for spawning for all but the largest language groups.
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Jos Elkink
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Jos Elkink » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:35 am

Wolfsong wrote:Full decay is important to keep the world feeling fresh and to keep the simulation alive. But yeah, the game also needs sensible advertising. Obviously staff isn't interested in drawing a playerbase back in, though, as ideas have been floated in the past to no avail - I, for example, pushed mailing old account emails with a newsletter about what has changed, etc., but that went nowhere. You can't revive a game by putting up posters on a university campus or making a shitty t-shirt.


Have you tried those posters, though? :-)

The problem is generally not lack of interest, but all these things take work to implement properly, and we're all volunteers. There are not really all that many really active staff members these days, who really take a lead on a project and see it through. I think you might underestimate how few people hold the management of the game together these days and how much effort they put into doing so. (And I'm not one of them, I only contribute a bit to discussions.)
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:03 am

Chris wrote:One or more OOC cliques seem to exist. I haven't named any of my living characters (though maybe an astute observer could guess one or more of them), but it seems pretty common for people to exchange character information through this forum, PM, IRC, Discord, etc. Even if it isn't a CRB, it still changes the game a lot for those who are tightly networked with other players vs. those who aren't.
curious wrote:This is how people seem to play now (an example... condoning what their chars do via OOC endorsement). I have gotten tied up in OOC dialogue about chars in the game and I actually hate it!

OOC 'group chats' and/or 'sharing' introduces an exclusivity into the game it doesn't require, removes an immersive element for players who prefer not to be in them (why would I bother to 'get into the head' of my chars if other people don't value it?) and to be blunt just makes the game generally less appealing.
I don't even understand how it is seen as the better alternative to playing totally anonymously, to be honest.
Neva wrote:I see so many people who quit the game and for so many different reasons, lately.

Some of them weren't able to see the self-destructive side of OOC-Cooperation until it's too late and they ended up regretting each line they write for their revealed characters. Because it's never as magical as it was when people know the wizard behind the curtain.

Some of them escaped from the OOC harassment on Forum and Discord.

Some of them did quit because of the OOC induced Mary Sue or bitch factor. Not being a Mary Sue doesn't mean being a bitch and in Cantr, bitches became a new uniform which gets more boring every day. Besides we have a growing army of factory-made character archetype "Hello, I'm 21 years old and so sad because I lost my fiancee (Wow! When?) maybe you can comfort me in your strong arms. *G&W*"

I agree with Curious on his hypothesis of the newly invented player motivation "winning the game", just because I can't come up with a better explanation and I have no idea how to stop it.
I only have two characters who are in active towns where they have other characters to talk to. In one of them, I just realized that every other character in the town is part of the OOC-Cooperation crowd. Also, I have this funny feeling that they know my character is played by me.

It's like waking up to discover everyone in your town is a pod-person. I mean this not in the "aliens took over their bodies" way but as in, "They are not who I thought they were but secretly sinister while pretending to be nice" way. I can see that my character will never be given a chance there and there is no place to go - they control every town.

Honestly, I am so discouraged. If I didn't have one particular character that I love, I would quit right now. I don't know what caused the former decline of Cantr but IMO, this is what is killing it now.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:07 am

PaintedbyRoses wrote:Honestly, I am so discouraged. If I didn't have one particular character that I love, I would quit right now. I don't know what caused the former decline of Cantr but IMO, this is what is killing it now.

Hey... I know I complain a lot but generally, I often feel invited to do so... and here's the thing. The game does still have something. It can be worthwhile. My game is dead 90% of the time but even then... it can still offer something. I just look for different things in it now and I try and avoid as much OOC conspiring as possible.
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Pony_Huetchen
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Pony_Huetchen » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:53 pm

curious wrote:[[...] I try and avoid as much OOC conspiring as possible.

Maybe that's the way to react here? Go away and tell stories about the secretive behaviour. Let rumours arise about a secret organisation, that you should avoid... :lol:

(I should add, that I did not experience this problem fist hand. At least not enough to be aware of it... So if my advice is stupid, please ignore it! :wink: )
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:31 pm

curious wrote:
PaintedbyRoses wrote:Honestly, I am so discouraged. If I didn't have one particular character that I love, I would quit right now. I don't know what caused the former decline of Cantr but IMO, this is what is killing it now.

Hey... I know I complain a lot but generally, I often feel invited to do so... and here's the thing. The game does still have something. It can be worthwhile. My game is dead 90% of the time but even then... it can still offer something. I just look for different things in it now and I try and avoid as much OOC conspiring as possible.

Actually... I withdraw this entire statement... I now believe that Cantr is failing because it has something between very little and nothing to offer people who actually value an anonymous and immersive role play environment.

Make of that what you will.
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:24 pm

curious wrote:
PaintedbyRoses wrote:Honestly, I am so discouraged. If I didn't have one particular character that I love, I would quit right now. I don't know what caused the former decline of Cantr but IMO, this is what is killing it now.
...here's the thing. The game does still have something. It can be worthwhile. My game is dead 90% of the time but even then... it can still offer something. I just look for different things in it now and I try and avoid as much OOC conspiring as possible.
I'm going to pretend that you didn't withdraw this because, here's the thing. You have been playing for about 8 years? Presumably, you have had many characters and they have had many different types of experiences and it has been at least interesting, maybe fun at times.

I have been playing for 6 months. I have 5 characters plus one who died from loneliness. Three of them spent years futilely looking for companions. They now live alone in towns where they quietly putter around.

Two of them live where there are other characters. They want to have interesting lives. They want to do things and achieve things but they can't because every frickin thing is owned and controlled by mostly older, super role players who are all friends with each other and will only have meaningful interactions with each other. Younger characters who immediately jump into the super role playing (they are all beautiful and perfect, of course) are taken into the fold, given luxury ships, vehicles, clothes, jewels, whatever. Then they all run around having pillow fights and exploring, and hooking up and somehow acquiring even more wealth (by raiding empty islands, I think) and generally living it up like 18th century French aristocracy.

Meanwhile, any other hapless characters are marginalized into worker semi-slaves who produce goods for the big shots for a small wage and an occasional handout/pat on the head. They can't do or achieve anything because they have no real access to resources or even friends for the most part. They can live small, dull lives, have tiny, meaningless businesses or whatever but, if they are too ambitious, they are frozen out of any way to get ahead in the world.

With such a small player base and so few English speaking populated islands, it's so easy to tell what is happening. You players who have been playing for years (and are not part of the OOC clique) don't notice because you don't care. You aren't really playing the game any more. You're just treading water for old times sake. But I think many or most or all new players have the same experience I'm having. And so they quit after a short time of fruitless, dull character lives. I know someone will say, "You have to be patient, you can't have it all right away" but it's not the slowness, it's the gradual recognition that their characters don't, and won't ever, have a chance to prosper (or revolt or create or be evil or etc. etc. etc.), EVER because they are ignored or even bullied by the only active players in the game.

It's not enough to draw in new players. You also have to retain them - and this is not working.

I have to go now. Maybe I'll rant some more later or maybe not. This is supposed to be a fun diversion for me from what is happening in the US government but Cantr has turned out to be mirroring it in a really, really disturbing way.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:50 pm

Nah, sorry... the withdrawal stands but, to your credit, I think you have a first class interpretation of the how the game now works. I wish you had joined it earlier.
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Estaar
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Estaar » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:04 pm

Is there no way we could concentrate on the people who don't play the way Painted just described?
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Estaar wrote:Is there no way we could concentrate on the people who don't play the way Painted just described?

Basically, anyone who has played this game, trying to adhere to it's core values or even come to embrace them later (and I do know some) is between a rock and a hard place. We all know them, the ones laid out by Painted above, and they are to be quite blunt, dissolving the core elements of this gae so that eventually, all that will remain are die-hards who will hang on in there and 'survive' the game, at best.

These players who conspire OOC, even just chat about chars but to an extent that their IC changes (something that 'older' players do, yes but seem able to avoid this conflict) have torn the soul from this environment for me... they have destroyed the 'art' and because they don;t value it... they value in-game praise and they have to be the successful people... they fundamentally... can NOT play a life without this. They are incapable of it.

Yes the questions are begged... How can we retain new players? Simple... by adopting them into this new style of 'role play'... into your clique. Well... I refuse to share the same space... and I 'am' a die-hard role player..!!
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby raspberrytea » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:09 pm

My perspective, below, is from someone who played many many years ago, but took a long break and only recently returned.

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the “OOC clique” that keeps getting talked about, and maybe that’s on me for just not noticing it? I have characters in a lot of very active towns and I don’t see much clique-y behaviour outside of the natural bonds (at least by my perception) formed IC. There are some towns that definitely have IC cliques going on, but I don’t see any evidence to make me think there’s OOC collusion happening there — it just seems like the flavour of the town.

PaintedByRoses, I’m sorry that you’re having a bad time. The town atmosphere makes such a big difference in fun, unfortunately. There are some truly awful places to be a newspawn, and some really great ones, and it’s all just the luck of the draw. I hope those fixed spawning places do come back soon.

I think the strangest part of coming back is seeing the accumulated wealth... and so much effing peace. Vehicles used to be such a big deal — and now they’re practically handed out. Everyone has fancy clothing and jewelry and telescopes. And where are all the murderers / bands of pirates / Robert Melee-esque villains? I see towns with town guards and it’s like the floppy disc save icon: outdated and kept going just because that’s what we used to do and we feel like we should keep doing it. There are no real threats.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:22 am

raspberrytea wrote:My perspective, below, is from someone who played many many years ago, but took a long break and only recently returned.

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the “OOC clique” that keeps getting talked about, and maybe that’s on me for just not noticing it? I have characters in a lot of very active towns and I don’t see much clique-y behaviour outside of the natural bonds (at least by my perception) formed IC. There are some towns that definitely have IC cliques going on, but I don’t see any evidence to make me think there’s OOC collusion happening there — it just seems like the flavour of the town.

This articulates my thoughts on what I've read about this so much better than I was able when I tried. I don't know if I am in the wrong places to see it or am merely oblivious.

raspberrytea wrote:PaintedByRoses, I’m sorry that you’re having a bad time. The town atmosphere makes such a big difference in fun, unfortunately. There are some truly awful places to be a newspawn, and some really great ones, and it’s all just the luck of the draw. I hope those fixed spawning places do come back soon.

I'm sorry, too.
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Wolfsong
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Wolfsong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:20 am

The recent direction of the game has been to enforce and encourage peace. Combat has been nerfed to oblivion, as has dragging, by staff.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby cutecuddlydirewolf » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 am

Wolfsong wrote:The recent direction of the game has been to enforce and encourage peace. Combat has been nerfed to oblivion, as has dragging, by staff.


It's been that way for a while, and honestly, that's one of my biggest issues with the game. Massacres and excessive killings have not been a problem in a very, very long time. It's overkill, and it prevents anything remotely interesting from happening on a larger scale. It's often impossible to kill or even kidnap people, whereas defenders get a multitude of advantages- all you need to do to ward off attackers is to stay inside a locked building and only leave to hit them. It's a wildly disproportionate balance of power, and actively prevents any sort of battles or violent crimes.

The goal of the game should not be peace. It shouldn't be solely violence either, but it should absolutely not be peacefulness and complacency. Wherever people are, conflict will naturally arise. All these limitations are doing is instilling a false, enforced sort of order in the game, which actively goes against both the spirit and the purpose behind Cantr. A society simulator is not a society simulator if the rules of the world force a pacifist's utopia.
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