A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department, Players Department Trainee

ManyVoices
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:32 pm

A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby ManyVoices » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:39 pm

Ok, so I'm putting this up because I've been challenged by someone that no matter what's suggested people don't want to make any big changes, so nothing will ever get changed unless GAB forces changes. I disagreed, saying that players would like major changes if it improves game quality. So, I want to see if this is really the case.

I'd love to hear peoples feedback on the concept that resources collection quantities can vary year to year based on external circumstances like weather.

Here's the concept:

A modifier could be added into the game that affects resource quantity, much like real life, droughts and such exist. Maybe it's a bad few years or decade for crops. Output is reduced by x%, during those years. The game could create a random percentage, then affect all resource gathering on crops for x many years. Maybe there would be surplus years?

Not sure what naturally effects things like minerals and such you pull out of the ground ... maybe flooding or something, but that could be figured out for other resources that don't grow and depend on weather.

This would change up the economy in the following ways:

1. There would actually be a reason to horde resources, for the lean years.
2. The static price of goods would be gone as yields are completely different year to year. Especially if you're going through a drought and some distant city's drought is less or more severe. There would actually be competition between cities, and trading, what a game changer!
3. Cause people to travel. If your home isn't producing much goods, you're going on a trip to get the resources you need.
4. Maybe it would even induce conflict as the towns that are producing well will become busier and resource collection slots will be full. Or they will throw on a tax to collect from them.

There's so many possibilities introduced once you have a dynamic economy.

Purposely not putting in a poll. Meant more for discussion first.

Thoughts? ...
User avatar
Pies
Programming Dept. Member
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: https://314es.pl/irc
Contact:

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Pies » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:04 pm

Modifier would be local I assume? One per city? Or one per resource in city?
dwudziestoletni mężczyzna wrote:"OOC: Jak ci się nie podoba, to nie graj. Ta gra nie szuka więcej graczy."

kaloryfer wrote:This game already has a lot of problems, new players would only bring new ones.
Millhouse
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:32 am

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Millhouse » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:22 pm

There are big changes suggested all the time and they usually get support, unless they're truly game breaking. It seems the last several game changes have been pushed through without much discussion by players, though.

There was a similar suggestion to the one you're making now that got pretty overwhelming support. viewtopic.php?f=90&t=25710
MonkeyPants4736
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby MonkeyPants4736 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:47 pm

I like such an idea, especially seasonal food resource fluctuations and seasonal spikes/decreases in both wild animal and domesticated animal reproduction.

But I think Wiro? already posted something similar.
MonkeyPants4736
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby MonkeyPants4736 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:54 pm

On the original topic, I don't think this case is a resistance to change issue. It seems more a feeling that something is being taken with anything being given back. The two stated benefits in the announcement do not seem a worthwhile trade to most who are posting, it seems.
User avatar
sherman
Forum Moderator/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby sherman » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:08 pm

Well, if we need to take something away.. This is doing so without doing so overly. So it's a good balance and well at this point something that at least will help. Unlike in the announcement where you hit hard EZ specially hard since most are anyway casual players and don't perhaps seek same thing like some (with side effects you can't even predict) this change would make Cantr world feel a bit more like real one. After all we all know about those from real life and so it might be more acceptable change. And honestly, you could add some things that help with side-effects like new machines or something like that
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
User avatar
Ahrta
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Ahrta » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:54 pm

I have been thinking of a similar suggestion for quite some time..... it seems silly to me to have snow in an area where obviously tropical food sources and such are available... also gathering apples in a blizzard...... etc.... so yes I would support something like this.... I would like to see actual climate zones as well
User avatar
Aduah
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:59 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Aduah » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:23 pm

I'm not opposed to disasters. Infact I have often suggested such things. Fires, floods, droughts, hurricanes bring it on. It could lead to interesting things. Wars, trade wars, religious uprisings. Itd be interesting to see travel, buildings, food supply affected by weather. Which is why i am such a proponent to the building decay as well. I'd like to see things be able to be destroyed and comunities have to work together to repair things after a disaster.

I don't mind the radio range being hampered a bit if repeater to repeater wasn't to be removed. Such things COULD be explained via in-game lore are in the cosmos have changed so signal doesn't travel as far. Just like how on earth, magnetic storms effect radios and communication. I don't mind change, I love it... IF if the phenomena can somehow be justified by some type of in-game lore. I mean SOMETHING has to be done to shake it up, but there are plenty of ways to do it without taking away mechanics.
User avatar
witia1
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: Jelcz-Laskowice

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby witia1 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:36 am

ManyVoices wrote:This would change up the economy in the following ways:

1. There would actually be a reason to horde resources, for the lean years.
2. The static price of goods would be gone as yields are completely different year to year. Especially if you're going through a drought and some distant city's drought is less or more severe. There would actually be competition between cities, and trading, what a game changer!
3. Cause people to travel. If your home isn't producing much goods, you're going on a trip to get the resources you need.
4. Maybe it would even induce conflict as the towns that are producing well will become busier and resource collection slots will be full. Or they will throw on a tax to collect from them.

There's so many possibilities introduced once you have a dynamic economy.

Purposely not putting in a poll. Meant more for discussion first.

Thoughts? ...


1. Cantrians already hoard stuff. Especially bigger cities. There is even one town in Polish zone that digs limestone just to brag how much they have over radio. And it's already more than whole cantrian world would need for next 5000 days.

2. I'm not sure if point 1 would have to big impact. It is to easy to store massive amounts of resources for temporary effects matter much. Mostly current piles of resources are factor that would cushion any negative effects.

3. Again two points above. Now trade is dying cause there is to much resources in storage.

Interesting idea, but in my opinion would not affect majority of cantrians at all or at least not in any meaningful way.

Cantr "ecconomy" is to flawed it self. Without way to limit recources that are already available in storage i would not expect for any positive change.
Rest In Pieces.
User avatar
viktor
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:36 pm
Location: winnipeg, manitoba, canada

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby viktor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:24 pm

resource hording has been happening on earth for thousands of years... we've even dug up some grains from pyramids 3000 years old. the people still suffered drought and starvation in the region while the grain was buried. so droughts and low yields during snowfall are great ideas, there are a lot of different resources and some of them a year or so of low yield can result in real price fluctuations in a region.
imagine a cantriian potato famine where 90% of potatoes rot as you dig em up and you're not in a region where they stocked em up either. or a drought causing lack of grain growth and you need a scythe just to get what bare handed picking used to for a year or 2 and you need to start importing from halfway across the island or another island nearby just to keep enough hay for your herd so you don't have to start culling, herbs wouldn't grow outdoors very well, in their natural sources or outdoor(including in a vehicle or on the deck of a ship) window boxes during cold seasons (window boxes in buildings and ship cabin/hold are unaffected)

you're digging some kind of mineral or ore and winter comes, it's a bloody blizzard and you can hardly dig because you didn't dress for the weather and you're cold meter is severely effected, forces us to invest in clothes for practical purposes beyond status and style.
Shiguy2
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:14 am

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Shiguy2 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:16 pm

witia1 wrote:
ManyVoices wrote:This would change up the economy in the following ways:

1. There would actually be a reason to horde resources, for the lean years.
2. The static price of goods would be gone as yields are completely different year to year. Especially if you're going through a drought and some distant city's drought is less or more severe. There would actually be competition between cities, and trading, what a game changer!
3. Cause people to travel. If your home isn't producing much goods, you're going on a trip to get the resources you need.
4. Maybe it would even induce conflict as the towns that are producing well will become busier and resource collection slots will be full. Or they will throw on a tax to collect from them.

There's so many possibilities introduced once you have a dynamic economy.

Purposely not putting in a poll. Meant more for discussion first.

Thoughts? ...


1. Cantrians already hoard stuff. Especially bigger cities. There is even one town in Polish zone that digs limestone just to brag how much they have over radio. And it's already more than whole cantrian world would need for next 5000 days.

2. I'm not sure if point 1 would have to big impact. It is to easy to store massive amounts of resources for temporary effects matter much. Mostly current piles of resources are factor that would cushion any negative effects.

3. Again two points above. Now trade is dying cause there is to much resources in storage.

Interesting idea, but in my opinion would not affect majority of cantrians at all or at least not in any meaningful way.

Cantr "ecconomy" is to flawed it self. Without way to limit recources that are already available in storage i would not expect for any positive change.



In that case why not make raw good rot no matter where they are? The way it is now, fill your town square with locked storages and harvest away, you will always have the recources till they are used. But this rot anywhere should only apply to foods and raws.
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(" )_(" ) signature to help him gain world domination.
User avatar
witia1
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: Jelcz-Laskowice

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby witia1 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:03 pm

To be honest I'm not sure if cantrian economy can be saved. For most cites that I've seen in game there is usually much more "sleepers" than active characters. And that is too impactful to correct it without some big game change. If "sleeper" is working and often they do, they are creating "free" labour. They are part of working force but they are not creating demand for goods.

Rot of resources could be solution, I would even see it (if it is not like that already with rot) as % of cumulated resource.
Additional thing could be creating some sort of "character comfort", that would be linked with character needs. To meet this needs character would need specific goods, like cloths to counter weather. With low level of character comfort effectiveness of work should drop. This way working characters are also creating demand on goods. This system could also promote usage of highly processed foods.
Rest In Pieces.
User avatar
Alladinsane
Posts: 3239
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:09 pm
Location: Fla

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Alladinsane » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:36 am

The idea has been around for a while and never really dealt with and I am not even sure its a development that we would want?

1. It can't be regional... yes, that would be more realistic, but I can imagine and even predict with absolute certainty that a few players within a city that suffered negative effects would howl. In my 7yrs here, I saw the game mods get accused of bias and specific targeting of certain players... never saw it happen, but saw it accused alot. Any specific targeted areas would either be "Staffs favorites" or "They hate me". Don't say it won't, because it already has... archive this forum and you will find many examples.

So the only thing seen as "fair" to most will be a universal effect... a 'great depression' or economic boom, if you will.

Since we are already seeing talk of "hoarding' within this very thread... do you realistically think any effect will actually be more often beneficial to the players than detrimental? It might... though a period of global economic bustle will certainly not help with the hoarding issue will it? It will probably lead to more hoarding since time is spent preparing for the 'lean years' that pessimists or pragmatists believe will surely come. If might even lead some to think that the game is 'too hard' and discourage play or recommendation to join by others. Most of us want the game to come back and certainly don't want the system itself working against us?

You may have a solution, but I just suggest that all ramifications, good and bad, be examined and at least discussed before we pull the trigger.

Another thought: what if there was a larger scale war (just imagine with me, unlikely but imagine if you will **sounds of Garth and Wayne taking us on a flight of fancy and time travel** and it was between two cities... or even two islands and the program gave one side an economic boom and the other side a depression, famine, etc. which side would you place bets on to win? Would both sides see this as fair? Only one probably would (unless the depression city was hoarders?!).
Hark the herald angels sing!
User avatar
Tiamo
Posts: 1176
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:22 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby Tiamo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Regional differences are not unfair if they just mean a difference in timing (like seasons already differ from one island/region to another) and/or a random difference in duration and severity of each individual cycle/circumstance. Then there will be regional differences at any given moment, but over time it all will even out.

This will add realism to the environment, especially if there is a notable connection with seasons and possibly weather (smart characters may even try to 'predict' good and bad times by examining the season/weather pattern), but it won't solve any of the big systemic problems of the Cantr world. If anything, better organized locations will (relatively) benefit, where sleepy and/or primitive locations will suffer.

... If might even lead some to think that the game is 'too hard' and discourage play or recommendation to join by others. ...

This is a fair point. I have noticed new characters sometimes have difficulty finding out how to build up a basic set of resources, tools and machines, unless helped by older characters. Environmental variations may make things even more confusing for them.
A well-written, visibly presented 'beginners guide' may help out on this and other learning curve issues.
I think ...
User avatar
T.E.Shandy
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: A Dynamic Economy - Drought, etc.

Postby T.E.Shandy » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:46 pm

Just rejoined cantr after sometime and got really excited by this post.

While role playing is obviously the center piece for this game, the political aspects of it and seeing what kind of societies people can build is also an extra draw. That's somewhat difficult to pursue however if resources are limitless. Unless there's interpersonal drama, every town is quite hunky dory cause there's no cause for trouble, strife, or pressure. External events, like drought or changing seasons as opposed to the odd lion attack, would put towns, societies, and characters to the test.

At the very least it's an interesting idea to pursue/discuss. It may make things harder sure, but it would help catalyze more stories and thus be more engaging.

Also, hi! I missed this game.

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests