Does anyone still enjoy the game?

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Piscator
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Piscator » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:34 am

Reading some of the above posts, I realize that people seem to expect rather different things from the game than I do - maybe because people who did, had a similarly difficult time to keep interested. I guess, my time in the RD also biased me towards certain aspects of the game.

The point that's bothering me most, personally, is the unsustainability of the resource system. Ideally, resources should spring forth at one place, flow to another place - powering the mills of society in the process, so to speak - and then drain out of the system again to maintain the gradient. In Cantr, resource sinks tend to fill up sooner or later, relying on a steady stream of new buildable gimmicks to keep the resource pool from stagnating.
Custom items are a nice touch - as there will always be at least some demand for them and they don't intensify the basic problem as e.g. harvesters - but ultimately some kind of saturation point will be reached, too, when several generations' luxury garments start piling up.
Anyway, in the here and now and from a player's perspective, the overabundance of resources and items makes it hard for me to find the game as playable as it used to be. Roleplaying and manufacturing roleplaying props are fine, but without the strategy and survival elements that used to be in the game it is much less compelling for me.

As for the other point, my impression is based on my mostly rather dated own experiences and what I picked up on the forums, but I seemed to me that in many places trading was more of a quaint custom than a serious means to make profit, that is, rather done for playing a trader than out of necessity. Depending on the time and place, the situation might be very different of course.
The formation of political units mostly seemed to be done for comparable reasons; rather out of OOC notions about how a character should behave than an actual need to do it in the form of e.g. getting food on your table. This is of course again highly subjective, depending on where and when you played.
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sherman
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby sherman » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:05 pm

Reading above posts it's kinda clear we have people wanting different things here. Some are quite happy with current things and some want more. As for politics, seems most aren't interested. This is based on personal experiences and how people even when offered such position generally are like meh I am not interested. So since we have playerbase that is shifted towards other end, those who seek other things find it hard to get them since they don't get people join them. Of course this is in the end result of what kind of players we get.. If you are not interested about them irl then you probably won't seek them from game either.

Then of course we have this old vs new. Older players want different things than newer ones and thus newer ones find it harder to get what they seek because older ones don't want them.

And sleepiness... If we forget sleepers who sleep because they are bored we must remember this is a game and we have different kinds of players with different backgrounds (students, night shift workers etc.) and they all have different times they can play not to mention their own time zones. So someone who can play only 3 hours a day naturally looks sleepy to those who have more time. And then we add that to fact we have small playerbase and different kinds of players that means our player with 3 hours playtime can find it hard to hit the hours when there's many awake (gets more visible the smaller the town.) Of course you get bored if you have small town with people with different playtimes cause even with slow paced game people kinda want to play and not wait for simple answer for hours.. So yeah people can complain about sleepiness but sometimes they forget that all have irl to tend too and it sadly gets front of things sometimes. Not all can play so much as others but they all have right to play :) This just means that lower the player base the differences get more drastic. And I am now speaking of EZ since other language groups are probably closer to each other.

We need new players but we can't also forget older players. Not all find it boring yet, they just want different things even inside that group. But it gets a problematic then you match people who want completely different things. I don't see how you can make it work.. It's like adding sugar to salt or vice versa. This is probably also a problem caused of what kind of players we have and thus you can't fix it by fixing game because it's not really games fault.

Game is what we make it to be so current game was created years ago. Some of the players now just continue to work with what they got when they started
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Jota » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:56 pm

Hello again.

First, my apologies if I have no reason to feel alluded. I do not express very clearly, I know. Therefore I want clarify what I said:

I do not explicitly concerned about the "political issues". I worry about the consequences, in this case, lack of players and lack of motivation of some new ones. I think about this some of us agree.

Certainly, as Sherman or Piscator indicates, the time to play is something that has a big effect on how the game develops.

I think, in short, that this great game needs to improve new players and opportunities for themselves on the one hand, and that this is related to factors such as lack of reality in some aspects (death by age and old age) on the other.

I not want this to be taken as a "claim against the powerful" especially his players, sure do a lot for the community. I say this because I think it would be measures to help improve aspects of the game and make it more attractive.
In any case, it seems that this has already been proposed. This is just an opinion and community decision taken in this regard should be respected.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Majix » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:32 pm

BagRich wrote:
I just ask for slight balance and a CHANCE to be able to kill someone. WIthout tea you realy have no chance and I think that is unfair.


I have had three of mine killed and I can assure you it worked fine for the murders without tea. And I find it very unfair they were killed.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Money » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:17 pm

Majix wrote:
BagRich wrote:
I just ask for slight balance and a CHANCE to be able to kill someone. WIthout tea you realy have no chance and I think that is unfair.


I have had three of mine killed and I can assure you it worked fine for the murders without tea. And I find it very unfair they were killed.


You both seem rather frustrated with the current status of the combat system, while I don't think it is currently in its optimal form I do believe it performs adequately. It allows for for non-consensual death, a must in any decent society simulator, and leaves force of arms as an option for conflict resolution. With the addition of NDS and stomachs less lethal conclusion of conflicts then killing are possible and some automatic healing can occur even if someone isn't currently online. Again I'm not saying this is the best system but IMO it's passable.

Majix you seem completely opposed to permanent death and combat. While I can understand the frustrations that come from losing characters I don't think you will ever see the removal of combat or permanent death from the game. You say the death of your characters is unfair but I don't think that adds much to the conversation or lead to any changes.

BagRich you seem to be on side that advocates for a tea buff and/or a combat buff, something I personally don't agree with. You say that no chance currently exists to kill someone but I've seen plenty of death during my time playing, with and without tea. Mowing down newspawns, both petty criminals and the annoying variety, takes but a moment and anyone who doesn't have a comparable weapon and shield to your character is easy pickings if you can get the drop on them. Admittedly killing well equipped characters who have established themselves in a region is difficult but it can still be done, the risk of retribution is just very high. Setting up defensive fortifications, as in any building/room with a lock, and stocking up on energy replenishing foods as well as some furniture for resting drastically increases your chances of being successful. Cantr is a slow-paced game and many don't log in frequently, if your whole goal is to up your kill count then your gonna have to go about it in a slow-paced way. Kidnapping/killing key figures, such as leaders or traders, instead of the wholesale slaughter of entire towns is fairly simple with a little coordination and planning, perhaps you should concentrate on causing chaos this way.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby EchoMan » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:31 pm

Majix wrote:I have had three of mine killed and I can assure you it worked fine for the murders without tea. And I find it very unfair they were killed.


I'm posting an anonymous reply to the above quote:

Anon wrote:Majix, as one of the players behind the death of one of your characters, I'm really hurt that you feel your character was killed unfairly. I have no idea what would constitute a fair death in light of this. In this instance, the death of your character spanned days upon days - real life days - with heavy, heavy roleplay from my character and extended hours of time to allow reply roleplay. So meta-stuff aside, there was the actual situation, where my character - to an OOC fault - tried to give your character every opportunity to save herself. Everything. And after all-else failed, and your character acknowledged death was the only way out - despite trying to emotionally manipulate your character to "hold on to life" for the sake of her dear best friend - you chose to let her die. And so my character carried that out.

And what did you do? You left an OOC note abusing me and telling me that "People like you destroy the game" - a direct quote. That was really, really hurtful, after all the effort I put in to roleplaying the situation with you, and even pushing the line in terms of nearly-OOC roleplay (in that my character really shouldn't have given yours so many opportunities to get out of the situation).

I feel compelled to share this anonymously as I'm unable to post on the forum. It might be clear who I am. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to ever talk about this. I just feel really hurt right now that you think it was unfair. It, in my opinion, was one of the few deaths anything but unfair.
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Carrot Lord
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Carrot Lord » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:23 pm

Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Apparently not? Geez, this thread went places.
You say: "*dramatically falls on the cot, curling up and screeching* *what is it doing is it crying what*"
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Tiamo » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:43 pm

I will repeat what i wrote near the start of this thread:
Tiamo wrote:I still have fun playing CantrII, even though the game has some serious flaws and could be 100 times better if it would be redesigned and rebuilt from scratch.
I think ...
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Money
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Money » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:34 pm

I think the problem is the title of the thread, which to my Canadian English accustomed eyes reads as pretty deep dissatisfaction with the game, and the tone forum discussions have taken in the recent past.

A lot of infighting between frequently posting members of the community, staff and each other has been put on display which could give people the wrong idea about the game. While the forum has appeared fairly toxic, to a part time lurker that is, my characters have seen a number of efforts to revitalize and brighten up the game. It doesn't help that one of the most active threads on the general forum can read in such a negative light.

Perhaps a shift in venue is needed or a mod to change the title? I know that this forum has a love for super long threads but I believe old dogs can learn new tricks.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Majix » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:44 pm

Anon wrote:Majix, as one of the players behind the death of one of your characters, I'm really hurt that you feel your character was killed unfairly. I have no idea what would constitute a fair death in light of this. In this instance, the death of your character spanned days upon days - real life days - with heavy, heavy roleplay from my character and extended hours of time to allow reply roleplay. So meta-stuff aside, there was the actual situation, where my character - to an OOC fault - tried to give your character every opportunity to save herself. Everything. And after all-else failed, and your character acknowledged death was the only way out - despite trying to emotionally manipulate your character to "hold on to life" for the sake of her dear best friend - you chose to let her die. And so my character carried that out.

And what did you do? You left an OOC note abusing me and telling me that "People like you destroy the game" - a direct quote. That was really, really hurtful, after all the effort I put in to roleplaying the situation with you, and even pushing the line in terms of nearly-OOC roleplay (in that my character really shouldn't have given yours so many opportunities to get out of the situation).

I feel compelled to share this anonymously as I'm unable to post on the forum. It might be clear who I am. Feel free to reach out if you'd like to ever talk about this. I just feel really hurt right now that you think it was unfair. It, in my opinion, was one of the few deaths anything but unfair.



We play different games. Things you find important is not as important to me and the other way around. What you find fair is unfair to me.

I’m sorry you feel hurt. So do I and that might be the only thing we have in common.

And no, I don’t know who you are.
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Wolfsong
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Wolfsong » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:19 pm

Yeah... Reading that post, it sounds like your character's death was more than fair. Maybe you use a made up definition of what's unfair? Ie, every single negative thing that happens to your character by default is unfair?
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby LittleSoul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:34 am

Piscator wrote:Reading some of the above posts, I realize that people seem to expect rather different things from the game than I do - maybe because people who did, had a similarly difficult time to keep interested. I guess, my time in the RD also biased me towards certain aspects of the game.

The point that's bothering me most, personally, is the unsustainability of the resource system. Ideally, resources should spring forth at one place, flow to another place - powering the mills of society in the process, so to speak - and then drain out of the system again to maintain the gradient. In Cantr, resource sinks tend to fill up sooner or later, relying on a steady stream of new buildable gimmicks to keep the resource pool from stagnating.
Custom items are a nice touch - as there will always be at least some demand for them and they don't intensify the basic problem as e.g. harvesters - but ultimately some kind of saturation point will be reached, too, when several generations' luxury garments start piling up.
Anyway, in the here and now and from a player's perspective, the overabundance of resources and items makes it hard for me to find the game as playable as it used to be. Roleplaying and manufacturing roleplaying props are fine, but without the strategy and survival elements that used to be in the game it is much less compelling for me.

As for the other point, my impression is based on my mostly rather dated own experiences and what I picked up on the forums, but I seemed to me that in many places trading was more of a quaint custom than a serious means to make profit, that is, rather done for playing a trader than out of necessity. Depending on the time and place, the situation might be very different of course.
The formation of political units mostly seemed to be done for comparable reasons; rather out of OOC notions about how a character should behave than an actual need to do it in the form of e.g. getting food on your table. This is of course again highly subjective, depending on where and when you played.



I feel a lot of these problems would be addressed if resources were -not- unlimited.
It completely messes up the economy, and it actually makes the idea of coins used on a large scale basis pretty pointless as well.
It's why the society simulation doesn't really work beyond tribal or independent territories (OOC and CR aside).
To have a real society, with a real political system, you have to have an economy, and that economy has to be based on raw resource gathering and good production.. and when it is infinite, you simply can't have anything that works large scale. And you want large scale things in this game to get any real progress, to give characters more opportunities, and to give the world a feeling of motion rather than stagnation.
Some people think a reset would help - I think taking away the limitations on progress in the first place is a better idea.

It's also a good point that resource distribution is a little out of whack. This also relates to the world being too large.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby pyrphoros » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:20 am

LittleSoul wrote:To have a real society, with a real political system, you have to have an economy...


Couldn't agree more.

Marxistically; all other ideas exist in the society, and the basic structure of the society itself, is economy. That what drives people to do and create and develop things; politics, war, ideologies, laws, slavery, public properties, rulers, kings, governments, democracy, etc.

A society with abundance of resources will only leads to individualism and less cooperation, less cooperation means less interaction (other than OOCly made up dramatized chit-chat), less interaction means less politics. Reflecting from our real life world, it was the need to cooperate that made us like what we are now.

My suggestion: Introduce natural disasters into the game. It comes randomly at random towns and it will sweep away large amount of resources, tools, and machines outside and inside buildings. At times, a lot of natural disasters will come at a lot of towns, again, and again. That way, the game can suffer loss of resources without resetting the game, killing off characters, or killing the roleplay mood of the players.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby computaertist » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:44 am

pyrphoros wrote:
LittleSoul wrote:To have a real society, with a real political system, you have to have an economy...


Couldn't agree more.

Marxistically; all other ideas exist in the society, and the basic structure of the society itself, is economy. That what drives people to do and create and develop things; politics, war, ideologies, laws, slavery, public properties, rulers, kings, governments, democracy, etc.

A society with abundance of resources will only leads to individualism and less cooperation, less cooperation means less interaction (other than OOCly made up dramatized chit-chat), less interaction means less politics. Reflecting from our real life world, it was the need to cooperate that made us like what we are now.

My suggestion: Introduce natural disasters into the game. It comes randomly at random towns and it will sweep away large amount of resources, tools, and machines outside and inside buildings. At times, a lot of natural disasters will come at a lot of towns, again, and again. That way, the game can suffer loss of resources without resetting the game, killing off characters, or killing the roleplay mood of the players.

You think that won't kill the role play mood of the players?
I'm not saying the idea is bad, but I am saying you don't seem to know our players very well.
Or maybe they'll shock and awe me by actually not being too put-off.
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Re: Does anyone still enjoy the game?

Postby Wolfsong » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:46 am

Could just increase the rot rate of resources outside on the ground and dramatically increase the rot rate of resources inside in uninhabited rooms (though obviously it shouldn't still be as severe as outside rot.)
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