Then a recap of the events that caused all of this, and once again, a rebuttal of some of the points brought up in defence of staff actions.
Skip to the recap, search for = Okay. Settle in. That there,
From "More accountability for staff", in suggestions
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=27258
From Greek
viewtopic.php?p=557793#p557793
A response about how the rules are fragmented and not easily accessible. Mention is made of 'unwritten rules' to be followed.
Then a response from Echo, about the rules being on the wiki. Few more of the same ilk, including a polish player stating that it's impossible to find the rules in Polish, without looking for them in English first.
viewtopic.php?p=558323#p558323
From Joshuamonkey, reposting the 'clarification' of the CR rule from Jos.
viewtopic.php?p=559048#p559048
Echoman claims I know nothing (Jon Snow), and that how GAB does things is obviously very intricate and detailed.
viewtopic.php?p=559085#p559085
It is stated by Joshuamonkey, that more people on staff, would be a good thing, lightens the load on other volunteers.
Last post, November 13th.
So, recap. None of the actual issues, even mildly addressed by any of the staff response. (Sanchez is neither staff, nor coherent, nor argues points anyone brings up).
Yes, the rules are fragmented, and difficult to follow. Yes, I know little about what happens behind the scenes, however having worked in offices and dealt with many areas of communication, I can draw some very educated conclusions. Yes, more staff would help. See below, for how staff are treated because of the current culture, have been treated in the past and how prospective staff are treated.
=========================
So, that's the first thread, in response. Onto the second.
"Another Open Letter", in general discussion
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27294
viewtopic.php?p=557908#p557908
Echo asking why I didn't mention the communications with Greek and himself during the banning (In short, because I was banned and couldn't see it. Sidenote, all attempts to communicate in the one avenue left, the IRC room, were stated to be 'unofficial and not really the way to talk about things in cantr'.)
Few posts later, asking people to come in and help on staff, instead of sitting at sidelines "The BEST way to make a change is to join staff and work on the change." (We'll get to that later. Again).
viewtopic.php?p=557943#p557943
From a staff member, and this deserves posting again in entirety.
*Wiro wrote:I'm on staff and I don't feel like there's anything I can do to change this situation. The problems with GAB are being discussed by GAB, so I cannot contribute there. What is it I'm able to help with as a staff member?
Now, this is interesting. This was from staff (check), senior staff (check). This was also ignored (check), ignored when I reposted it (check), ignored the third time I reposted it for them (check). That's, a lot of bad checks, right there. And another hole in the idea that being on staff would allow players to help make positive changes, when a staff who could put such efforts in, is shut out completely.
viewtopic.php?p=557949#p557949
Echo states this'll be the end of his response. Hint: it isn't.
EchoMan wrote:Playing Cantr is not a god-given right, it is something the game owner offers to people who play by the rules. The same goes for access to the forum and other services related to the game.
So, Jos is where the buck stops, or starts? Whichever, Jos is the final authority. An, interesting statement. See below for more.
viewtopic.php?p=557961#p557961
Alladinsane wades in. According to him, he could either have done stuff, or typed a few words in the forum. He chose to type a few words, and then claim that was all that could be done. (Along with another call for people to join staff)
viewtopic.php?p=557963#p557963
SekoETC wrote:I was in staff and was kicked out. I've come to terms with that, but someone was going around saying I resigned myself. That ain't right. I was thrown out.
There. An ex-staffer was kicked out, it was put about that she resigned, and this is after she was treated incredibly poorly while on staff. So, that's how staff are treated, when they sign up. Again, not an inducement to join, if it simply paints a bigger target on the head.
viewtopic.php?p=557972#p557972
The Spanish appear! No, not really, just the one. In short, we don't have the right to criticise or state anything, because .... because. That's why. So sit down, shaddup or fuck off.
Not exactly a useful response.
viewtopic.php?p=557997#p557997
Echo states GAB policy a bit. It's fairly reasonable, and seems to be standard in most office and work settings. So, no surprise there.
However.
EchoMan wrote:In the current case, some of you got a reply from GreeK, where he says "I will get back to you in regards to the messages ..." (not an actual quote, but the meaning is there). You can be 100% sure that GreeK or someone else will get back to you on that subject.
This, has not happened. Even a little. There has been such a scarcity of feedback and communication, and this is month 3 now. So, that's an admirable ideal, but it simply has not happened. A staff member in correspondence, agreed with me, that communication should happen.
iavatus wrote:
If the staff member had asked me to stop talking about these things publicly for several days, I can promise that I would have, so long as the communication was clear and there was obvious progress being made.
This is how it used to and should be. We are still not sure what failed in tha current situation, and that's why we dont respond so much, yet.
So, again. Got this staff agreeing that yes, we should have communication, back and forth, and then not following through. Again, another hole in this idea of how things should be coming hard against what is bothered to actually be done. And really, typing isn't very hard. It really, really isn't, and it makes things much smoother.
EchoMan wrote:I am quite sure the message you received also says that the bans were out of proportion. That should give you a hint that you are not supposed to be banned. You will not get any more information until the information is available, for reasons I stated in my previous post.
From a post or two later. Hints? We're supposed to divine messages, from hints now? If the people involved shared the same culture, same language, same rough background, that *might* be acceptable. Over the interwebs? No. Simply, no. Better off calling a druid and getting some augury in.
viewtopic.php?p=558018#p558018
Joshuamonkey agrees that staff could and should resolve things better.
viewtopic.php?p=558279#p558279
I (hi me!) point out, fairly reasonably, that this is a good example of how having invisible and fragmented rules trip people up, even staff.
viewtopic.php?p=558366#p558366
A valid example, is treated with disdain. Not exactly a useful response.
viewtopic.php?p=558281#p558281
Alladinsane, in true form, delivers a rather odd and easy to misinterpret statement.
Alladinsane wrote:You have spoken and something is getting done. Whether you will like it or not is to be determined.
I'm, not going to pretend to understand that, especially as 2 months on, nothing has actually been done. So, yes, I don't like that. That is about all we *can* determine.
viewtopic.php?p=558338#p558338
Beepbeep points out that, for once, this airing of views has been acknowledged and tacitly allowed. Even though by the rules of the forum, this could easily be just deleted, and the people banned. Again.
viewtopic.php?p=558495#p558495
Bit of a derail, into having some sort of rule system that gives people the benefit of the doubt. Interesting, but not what the thread and point and the whooole things been about. But good in theory.
Page or so of meandering conversation and then,
viewtopic.php?p=558570#p558570
CDLS pops in, to state that it's offensive to attribute bad motivations in PD response. Which is fair enough, but the sad thing is that more then a few staff/ex-staff have claimed their opinion that all players have bad motivations, as reason to treat everyone in the way they have. So, turnabout (with evidence of such), is fair play. I know I didn't appreciate such treatment, and done my best to not do the same.
viewtopic.php?p=559043#p559043
Me again! Just a recap of the few weeks.
viewtopic.php?p=559047#p559047
Response from Echoman.
"You have not a single clue as to how staff works behind the scenes."
Again, have worked in office environment, and have your own words on this. So yes, I do have more then a single clue. I have a very clear picture.
viewtopic.php?p=559052#p559052
A tongue in cheek aside, asking for there to be a PR department for Cantr. There is. I, and the other 4, were banned by it. And then it rebanned us and had a behind the scenes bitchfit for the other staff for daring to do such a thing. And this PR department, well. You can look at their last activity.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=163538
Of immense interest, is the last time they posted, 14 months ago. And, as of writing this (December the 20th), their last login to the forum was November the 24th. Not exactly up on things, are they? But yet, they were completely willing to jump into something at someone's beck and call, ban, reban, and then bugger off again. Leaving them completely able to do the same thing anytime their puppeteer wishes their bidding done.
viewtopic.php?p=559063#p559063
A response from Echo, comparing the behaviour to that of Stalinist Russia. For about the third time, he finds something somewhat insulting. But, Cantr is not a democracy (or should that be demokracy?), and apparently there's a constitution dictating the staff behaviour, or something. Not the first I've heard of it, but not exactly something that seems to be available, visible or followed (unless it's simply "Thou Shalt").
viewtopic.php?p=559076#p559076
Another flawless Alladinsane response. Again, asking for people to join staff, and saying that everyone who's been complaining, none of them have stepped up and volunteered. Again, will be responded to later.
End of thread, last post, November the 13th.
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Okay. Settle in. That there, is the background. It's time for a recap, then rebuttal.
In late September, Axiom had several characters on Treefeather. THe game is rather small these days, so there was some clustering. Her pirate character, Lyra Halifax, raided a few ships, a few towns, and was about to start another raid. They had this down pat by now, and prepared to go into action at a time determined. But, something happened, and it needed to be called off.
What had happened, is a message from PD had been sent. What it contained, was one man demanding a call off, demanding information on all her characters and actions, demanding the island of Treefeather to be left alone, demanding all sorts of things for which there was no real way to respond to, in character, and impossible for her to respond to on the forum. So, she did what anyone would do, and complied as best she could. This was by a typed message, OOC: Calling off the raid, PD has questions. Now, that's a bit abrading, but how else are you going to do that, on short notice.
An important fact, is that Axiom was still a very very new player. Not one character out of her 30s, and first account. 28 was the age, so a bit less then 3 months. So, on the surface, a very new player. She was also a staff member in ProgD , one who gets paid to program IRL, a very usefull skillset. And seeing as the code needs some serious cleaning, one might think that treating a person with such valuable skills like a person at the least, would be a sensible idea.
PD response? (I say PD response, but it was clearly one person's response. Possibly with sockpuppet and crony support). To instantly lock her entire account, to not respond to communication on the forum in message, nor in IRC, in any capacity. For weeks. Leaving everyone in a terrible limbo for what's happening. This is not treating someone like a person, or with a modicum of respect. This is treating a person terribly.
So, this is where I and my friends come in. I had to start asking, why. Why was this happening, to one person, for a minor breach, when flagrant, obvious ones (such as two nearby knight groups having the same players as leaders, the same people, and very much the same attitudes, oftentimes interacting IC and OOC in multiple instances) are not even commented on. Including an instance when the only communication between two players was an OOC: I'll be awake soon, but that was enough for the other to nod, in character, and act like that was an adequate response.
The answer, cause she was rocking the boat of one staff members precious snowglobe, and this could not be allowed. Fortunately, he has the power, and sockpuppets to kickban people for no reason, and even the forum rules state that bringing up any PD discussion is not allowed. So, sounds like he's got everything cornered, right?
Well, sadly, I'm a warrior. I don't fight, I don't attack, I wage war. And when someone is being a bully, and picking on a friend, I pick up my toolkit of words, and blatter the crap out of them.
This is month 3 now, and the Spanish castle is still holding strong. Because they believe they can ignore the dirty peasants, believe that just kicking people off the forums for no reason ("Reason given for ban: Infraction to the forum rules" = is neither a reason, nor good english), believe that they hold enough of the power base to just squeeze and strangle. Except here comes Jos to ... uh, something.
http://pastebin.com/vysm5Zs6
Not a huge amount, but hey, wouldn't the Spanish castle have been crowing loudly and longly, if they'd have been proved in the right? Hasn't happened, ergo isn't so.
Which brings us, to the GAB response, and procedures. Frankly, 3 months with nothing but a few words, is not a response. Is less then a response, is nothing. So, GAB, I do hope those discussions you're having feel interesting and productive, because they haven't actually produced anything, have they?
Now, the next point. As has been stated oh so many times, the only way to change things, is to be staff. Well, then the only way to change things, is to make it possible to *be* staff.
However
- I was on staff, quit over this because to be actually objective would require such.
- Axiom was on staff, and actually treated HARSHER because apparently with the blue name, you get more then 3 months of playing experience, just jammed into your head.
- Seko was on staff, and see above, for being thrown out, bullied, harrassed and the cherry on top, lied that she quit.
- Marian applied, and has heard nothing.
- Other staff members have been bullied, and harrassed, and made to leave staff, simply because the group in power didn't want anyone else in.
- Wiro asked how he could help in the current GAB discussions. Is ignored entirely, repeatedly.
- Me again! I applied to PD, because it was clear that that was the only area I could help in, and I have the skills and ability to do so. The response?
"This Department handles very delicate and sensitive information that needs to be treated with the utmost confidentiality and respect since affects the game of the players, and your behavior in recent events against the staff has been the reason to conclude in a lack of confidence on you to handle this information from a viewpoint totally objective and confidential."
At no point in this, has PD been delicate, sensitive, confidential, respectful, objective. So, that's a whitewash. I at least, am up front about where my opinions lay. The figures behind this, can claim no such honesty.
To highlight
"Theda: Well, people, you have got a lot of ways to make a complain. You also have got ways to make suggestions, ways to help, ways to discuss and if you are not able to find them, you can ask by thousands of ways too. "
So, this is how I can help, and it was knocked back. Maybe legitly, maybe not. But, you've just shot a hole in your argument that that's the only way to change things, if the door is barred to only people of a certain opinion.
viewtopic.php?p=557038#p557038
And just to point out the caliber sometimes this gets to, this is Alladinsane carefully noting that quite a few people involved, were volunteers and volunteering. So, I've just made the exact same point, twice. This time, with more and more evidence around it.
Those are the only points that have been brought up. That we can't know the intricacies of GAB inner workings (false, we're adults and have worked), and that the people are only wanting change without volunteering to help (again, false.), and that staff can make changes (false, staff are ignored entirely unless they're part of a select group. That agree with the established powerbase).
So, this is where it stands. No response, only vague statements that could mean anything. Staff have quit (including a valuable and desirable programmer), discussions have been locked, people have been banned, unbanned, rebanned, and expected to divine hints from a message they may not have had time to read, and nothing, whatsoever, has happened.
------
Notice that at no point, have I or needed to respond to the vast and dastardly crime that Axiom committed? The sum of them? A typed message, starting with OOC:, and alleged OOC communication. That is it. There is no more. This was the spark that started all this, and frankly, it's a pretty mild one, from any reasonable person. But sadly, the staff response doesn't have to be reasonable, it has rules to hide behind.
As a further aside, when a rather unpleasant subject was getting visibility, I again used all avenues to try and get a staff response. It was, underwhelming at the least - a thread locked after it had already run it's course. And of course, the blame is on the people who are trying to make things better, as
"and the law of unintended consequences has arisen from the recent vilification our dept has gotten on the forum. Once we get through the legal stuff; we plan to deal with this sharply."
Yes, that's right. I was directly responsible for someone else getting away with some fairly unpleasant and unpalatable behaviour because mean words were said on the forum. Right, that just makes no sense, and is a despicable ploy to try and blame everyone else. Mean words wouldn't be said, if the staff had acted like professional, in the slightest. So grow up, and big boy pants on.
Fondly,
A player who is actually willing to make the game better, not a staff member who only pilots a course for his own ego.
P.S. While there's much that needs doing to fix all the problems and that'd take time, there's one thing that'd taken very little. Return the Axiom praise thread, scrubbed of the last few posts when it did start to get a little nasty. That'd be a good step in showing that yes, staff can listen and do things, instead of just saying nothing, doing nothing. Don't be butthurt because it's an honest gushing of support and praise for one person, celebrate the fact that she did so much in such a short time.
e: Fixed a few typos
