Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Millhouse
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Millhouse » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:38 pm

The problem with changes to hay making mechanics is that it would have a big impact on steeds and also the domesticated animal economy, two things that are a contentious (especially steeds).

There would need to be a big trade-off, like expensive machinery. An improved haystack or harvesters. Something that couldn't be just picked up and moved by a steed owner.

I think as the playerbase shrinks and interest in domesticated animals wanes we'll probably see a lot less animal domestication in the game. But lacking some big push by game developers I think that small towns need to just realize they can't keep tons of domesticated animals. Or they need to try to recruit more people if they want to keep them.
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Vanya
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Vanya » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:19 am

Millhouse wrote: (...)
I think as the playerbase shrinks and interest in domesticated animals wanes we'll probably see a lot less animal domestication in the game. (...)


Well... you quite hitted the nail with this; I have been thinking about this for most of the week. Idk if the player base is shrinking actually because Im very new to the game, but I ve seen some players who started after me and quitted right away pretty soon. In my lack of experience I could point to the many spawn points that make many posible place to start, with few characters, what makes the game look at first a bit unpopulated, many towns having 1, 2, or 3 active characters (and tons of sleepers).
Maybe making the spawning points a bit shorter would help into making new players feel like part of a moving community, and not just part of a Crusoe´s expedition in the middle of nowhere.

Another thing would be that some communities are really hostile (one of my characters fell right in the middle of a town that would fit in the movie "The Hills have Eyes" XD), ... but thats something that has nothing to do with the game, but the characters :b. I actually apreciate that.
P.D.: ... my character became the breakfast, or at least a punchbag, almost instantly.
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Ahrta
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Ahrta » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:23 pm

Some of us like getting thrown in the middle of nowhere...I like the challenge. I find it much better than being in a large town where my newspawn has no chance of really contributing anything meaningful.
Nikarus
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Nikarus » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:09 pm

Millhouse wrote:The problem with changes to hay making mechanics is that it would have a big impact on steeds and also the domesticated animal economy, two things that are a contentious (especially steeds).

There would need to be a big trade-off, like expensive machinery. An improved haystack or harvesters. Something that couldn't be just picked up and moved by a steed owner.


Or they could simply increase the consumption rate by a percentage, or nerf production a bit... You know, not overcomplicate things.

Same total time needed to produce feed for an animal, but without the general concept of full time manual labor of "making hay".

Also your comments about small towns keeping "tons" of domesticated animals...
Lol anything above a breeding pair is basically undoable for 2 people without a scythe and metal tools across the board.

Also maybe steeds had a real use once. But along the coast theyre completly superceded by ships, which are easier to produce and maintain.
On most islands theres plenty of vehicles around, with fuel never far. And there are already roads to most places.
Hell some islands ive visited have taxis and such already.
Perhaps they did have a point once during the early explorstion days, but unless theyre going to start adding territory. I really dont see a usage for steeds anymore.
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the_antisocial_hermit
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:22 pm

Nikarus wrote:Also maybe steeds had a real use once. But along the coast theyre completly superceded by ships, which are easier to produce and maintain.
On most islands theres plenty of vehicles around, with fuel never far. And there are already roads to most places.
Hell some islands ive visited have taxis and such already.
Perhaps they did have a point once during the early explorstion days, but unless theyre going to start adding territory. I really dont see a usage for steeds anymore.

Steeds are actually far newer than the early exploration days. Certainly the most commonly known islands were well explored at that point. They were added in at least 8 or so years into the game's life. They are still more useful than fueled vehicles in some places- places that are still relatively wild and far from easy fuel or metal sources.

That said, I would not mind an automatic way to make hay. I would not want consumption to go up, but I wouldn't mind an adjustment to production or a new item or whatever might work to balance it.
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Millhouse
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Millhouse » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:09 am

Nikarus wrote:
Or they could simply increase the consumption rate by a percentage, or nerf production a bit... You know, not overcomplicate things.

Same total time needed to produce feed for an animal, but without the general concept of full time manual labor of "making hay".

Also your comments about small towns keeping "tons" of domesticated animals...
Lol anything above a breeding pair is basically undoable for 2 people without a scythe and metal tools across the board.

Also maybe steeds had a real use once. But along the coast theyre completly superceded by ships, which are easier to produce and maintain.
On most islands theres plenty of vehicles around, with fuel never far. And there are already roads to most places.
Hell some islands ive visited have taxis and such already.
Perhaps they did have a point once during the early explorstion days, but unless theyre going to start adding territory. I really dont see a usage for steeds anymore.


I don't see the point of speeding up hay production if your also suggesting increasing consumption.

Also, if a town has only two people and no scythes and no means to make them then why waste time domesticating animals? I'd say a town like that has better things to do. Animal domestication should be for established towns.

As stated above, steeds were introduced fairly recently. Like within the last two years. And they definitely added value to the game. They don't compete with sailing, in fact they compliment it.
Nikarus
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Nikarus » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:01 am

Look mill. This is a thread about things that puzzle us about the game.

I wrote about something puzzling from the realism perspective.
You didnt like that because it would be game breaking.

I pointed out that it could be simple to change without affecting the current balance of the game.
You dont like that because "why bother".

Also you dont really have any right to say anything about what players wish to do with their characters. If a small 2 person hovel wants to try and raise a couple animals they should be able to, even without metal tools.

Mind you, steeds really dont come into play with this. As a single person can already easily feed their steed without assistance.
While you need tools for a small group of people to maintain a breeding pair of animals, feed them, and pull all products off of them. And hope to work on other projects in the meantime.

But hey, guess we should all stand around naked while we RP placing single blades of grass on a haystack to make hay.
Millhouse
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Millhouse » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:37 am

Well you did make a suggestion ("Why can't we use a rake or dung fork to speed up the process?") and that's what I was replying to. Has nothing to do with disliking anything you said (I don't).

I agree from a realism standpoint that manually drying hay is kind of baffling. And I do think it's also kind of annoying that if you decide to take on animal domestication it becomes a full time job. I have a couple of characters that did it and it started to feel like I was playing Farmville or something. But I understand why it is the way it is and personally I'll only take on animal domestication under the right circumstances (I.e. I have enough help or I have nothing better to do with my character)
Nikarus
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Nikarus » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:36 pm

Heres something annoying and puzzling.

We have "wood" as a resource. With no identifier of what kind of wood.

During my gameplay I and others I know have added types of qood to descriptions of things. Yes a pickaxe noone really cares what the handle is made of.
But a finely crafted crossbow, its carved from oak, and its string twined from sinew...
Among other descriptions like that. A friend of mine in particular (the one who introduced me to the game) spends effort picking woods based upon the weather and regional features of the place it was gathered.

Recently I saw another player lash out her in a PM saying that its wrong of someone to describe an item in that manner as "theres no oak ingame".

Ive also heard complaints from her about descriptions of the leather things are made from including the type of animal. Course this one I might agree with, a person glancing at a leather jacket likely cant tell that it was cow leather over wisent leather, but I still don't see how it hurts anyone either.

This depresses me, as one of my characters is going to start building a boat soon, and I was looking to be very descriptive about it.


So other player's thoughts? How free are we to describe our things?
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muidoido
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby muidoido » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:48 pm

Don't let annoying people pull you down. If you want to describe it as made from a wood as dark as the night or an almost white, common looking wood but with a wonderful odor, it's your business only.
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Alladinsane
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Alladinsane » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:04 pm

You can describe rooms and the colors as you wish.

When you are describing something made of marble... there are many types of marble. Its the same with wood... teak, mahogany, oak, birch, elm and thousands of types beyond my lvl of knowledge in that field. Types of stone etc... how much do we want to have to travel for these?
Of course they might add a new trading loop.

In the spirit of describing rooms (You can do this within reason with naming boats) I have seen one that describes the masthead... I have also seen a few boats with a note onboard which describes "what you see as you board" (or some variation thereof). Its not ideal, but we need to give our newly headed RD dept time to get a few things done. Look at the archives of "accepted suggestions"... there are years worth that were agreed to be a good idea. I doubt you will see all of them in this December sunset... but some detailed suggestions help expedite the processes.

Good luck!
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Millhouse
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby Millhouse » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:07 pm

It should be fine to describe different kinds of wood when doing custom descriptions. At least to a point. Obviously you wouldn't want to say for example "made from wood which was gathered in a remote forest on Fu" if your character has never been to Fu, or "carved from a limb of Yggdrasil", which is a mythological tree. It should be acceptable that your character can identify different types of wood and pick one that has the right aesthetic for the project they're working on.
MonkeyPants4736
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby MonkeyPants4736 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:10 pm

I don't think he's asking for specific types of wood to be implemented. Rather, he is upset that his friend got grief from someone for describing something not explicitly stated to exist.

I like what Shaudawn wrote on the topic. Here's an excerpt from the larger text found here: http://wiki.cantr.net/index.php/User:Shaudawn

"... 4) Canonical Hierarchy, the Capital Paradox, and Character Knowledge

This part is a work in progress as it will take some serious thought to come up with a good, fair hierarchy.

This is both a game and a simulation.
Anything not mentioned in a canonical source can be roleplayed without being deemed a Captial Rule breech. (e.g. the "Do bees exist in Cantr?" question. While a beehive is an in-game machine and produce honey when you apply various flowers or beeswax when you apply honey, bees themselves are not part of the game mechanic. Some people argue that roleplaying getting stung while nearing a beehive is a Capital Rule breech. Likewise, any mention of the sun, day or night, oxygenated air, etc. Since there is no explicit rule stating that bees absolutely do not exist in Cantr, it is reasonable to assume they do exist and can be legally roleplayed as such and should not be considered a Capital Rule violation. Likewise with other reasonable entities.)

Canonical Hierarchy (Suggested. This can and will change and may end up being more of a matrix than hierarchy.)
1. Jos Elkink, speaking in the capacity as Word of God. (His game, his rules. Jos as a player...that's different and not even the Almighty incarnated should be allowed special privilege (in my humble opinion).)
2. The game mechanic (only insofar as that the function is maintained devoid of perceived meaning)
3. The Capital Rule
4. CantrWiki (as it pertains directly to game mechanics)
5. Forum posts explicitly declared authoritative by current, sanctioned members of their respective Departments
6. Physics, human biology, animal biology and behavior..."

Basically, if something isn't addressed by the game's mechanics, rules, or voices of authority, then it should be absolutely cool to draw from real world concepts.
Last edited by MonkeyPants4736 on Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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muidoido
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby muidoido » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:11 pm

muidoido wrote:Don't let annoying people pull you down. If you want to describe it as made from a wood as dark as the night or an almost white, common looking wood but with a wonderful odor, it's your business only.


These descriptions came from real woods. If you add the names, at least in my opinion, a lot of the fun is gone.
MonkeyPants4736
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Re: Things that annoy or puzzle you about Cantr

Postby MonkeyPants4736 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:14 pm

But descriptions are not for the characters. They are for the players to interpret what their character is seeing.

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