Resource Overabundance: Why There's No War In Cantr

[Nalaris]

The title is an exaggeration. There is some war in Cantr. I don't need a whole bunch of people derailing my topic talking about how one of their characters once saw a war between two out of the hundred or so towns in the game about forty in-game years ago.

In real life, wars basically always happen because of the human instinct to get food, shelter, social status, and people with which to make babies (I'm paraphrasing that last part a bit to keep things at least slightly family friendly). Those instincts don't have a cap. Despite the fact that there are very obviously points where you seriously don't need to have any more food, any more house, any more status, or any more girls hanging off your arm, people will continue seeking out more and more and more, because our instincts haven't caught up with the fact that in the last ten thousand years or so, it is actually possible to have too much of this stuff. For most of that ten thousand years, though, that was only true of a small number of people, and wars happened because of the other direction. A lot of people were hungry a lot, their homes didn't do much to keep out the elements, they had trouble finding a spouse (or at least, one they actually liked), and the local lord enjoyed rubbing his immense and arbitrary power in their face just as much as your average dick boss or teacher in the modern world (you've probably had one), except back then the lord could have your head chopped off if you pissed him off. What this means is that you've got a small number of people at the top who literally think they're directly descended from the gods (or at the very least have their/His approval) and a bunch of people at the bottom for whom stabbing strangers in exchange for three square meals a day, a place to sleep, and the chance to not get shoved around by power-tripping guards because you are a guard, for those people this was a seriously awesome deal. So of course wars happened a lot. I'm simplifying a lot here because human behavior is absurdly complex and not with a hundred times the character limit could I begin to properly explain it, but you get my gist.

None of this applies in Cantr. First off, there are no resource shortages. It is super easy to get enough food to eat. That will continue being true until the game population rises to astronomical levels, which is unlikely to ever happen, even if the game gets repopulated in general. Second, even if there were resource shortages in-game, we don't actually get hungry or tired from the game. There are a ton of people who, if harvesting potatoes actually required effort, would probably be willing to get some other poor sucker to do it. And that number would go up a lot if you actually got hungry when you didn't have enough. Third, we're all coming from modern nations where not having enough to eat hasn't been a serious concern for the vast majority of the population in a century or more. Which means our characters will act suspiciously in accordance with philosophies that would never have been developed in a more scarce world even if Cantr was one. So that's a thing.

I don't actually have a solution for this. I'm not even sure if it's a problem. I just saw some discussion on the subject in some ancient thread which was mostly about something else and decided to post my musings about it. So, discuss, I guess.

[Black Canyon]

I do think it's an interesting topic. I believe that the issue isn't necessarily the over-abundance of resources, but instead it's the lack of significance or value that any resources other than iron and steel have in cantr. Because in cantr that's where the real power lies. Not in food, because if there is an area that is plentiful in food and another where there is a lack of food yet the resources necessary for iron or steel are available.... well.... the iron and steel wielders will simply go take the food. There is no war over resources in cantr because the only real resources to fight over are the ones necessary to be effective in battle. To change this dynamic would require a shift in the value of resources , possibly an introduction of new, highly desired resources with specialized and limited placement. Or, change the over-abundance of real estate in general. Land, or territory , is one thing that might be worth fighting for. But currently there are too many abandoned towns and too few characters to populate the available territories.
That's my thought.

[Majix]

You forgot one of the war reasons.


Religion.

[Nalaris]

No one ever fights a war because of something as complex and abstract as religions. There's no such thing as an instinct to worship an unknowable and mystical presence beyond the limits of human understanding. Nothing in any of that helps you pass your genes on to the next generation, and it's not about some fundamental truth either, because everyone in the world agrees that at the very least 90% or so of the religions that have ever existed are completely dead-wrong. Religion is a complex interaction between desires that are way simpler. People fight wars because of the thing a religion promises. Religion usually triggers the social status desires in human beings, but when wars and nations get their hands in it, typically you end up using promises of wealth or virgins to convince the peasants to go stab people for you. Or blow themselves up in the embassy of your choice, whatever. The greatest part about this is that the nation gets to basically pass the buck for payment onto whatever god they represent, and even if it turns out that god doesn't even exist no one will ever know it because people aren't exactly coming back from the dead all the time and saying "hey, by the way? Asgard: Not real." Even if it turned out that the god does exist and totally will give you 72 virgins for murdering his least favorite innocent bystanders, Mohammad al-Terrorist still doesn't have to lift a finger to make it happen.

EDIT: Okay, wait, I just remembered that I had a response for Black Canyon's thing that was way cooler to my response to Majix's thing. Okay, so it's true that a resource that was valuable and also not directly applicable to stabbing people in the face would probably help a lot, because if you can fight an effective war in the first place that means you're already sitting on top of the only resource that really matters anyway. That's really true and also really important, because even if the resources are hyperabundant, the land isn't. Only one organization can own the hematite mines and limestone quarries and whatever, so the resources are limited a bit in that sense. That doesn't give rise to warmongering societies so much because Johnny Q. Cantrian probably doesn't care so much about getting iron tools that he'd risk his life for it, but at least it gives you something to point the cannons at and keep the fight going once you've managed to get one started, and that's a big deal, because there seriously are a lot of people in Cantr who'll start wars just because they're bored. You don't have to kill real people and you don't have to get really killed, the same way you don't really have to farm potatoes.

Problem is, what could the new resource be? Typically, resource wars in real life totally are waged over resources that are important to murder. That and gold, which is super-valuable for no reason at all. There are things Cantrians want: To make awesome clothes or machines, establish large cities, build an empire, be respected by their town, build an empire, be a soldier who isn't a hack-and-slash protagonist but rather just a regular soldier...Probably I'm missing some. By the time we get to the idea of "playing Cantr" human desires have evolved in absurd and hyper-complex ways that are really difficult to keep track of and literally dozens or hundreds of steps removed from our most basic, root desires. So there's probably nuance I'm missing completely. But either way, there'd have to be some way to appeal to these sorts of desires, something that helps you accomplish that. Like a material that helps you build an airship or something, but which isn't at all useful for war. A material that lets you construct the foundation for a super-awesome building, like a skyscraper or something (although this comes with the problem that our limited population renders such buildings worthless in most situations, and people typically build them just because they can). A material that lets you construct tools that will help you cook dishes you would not otherwise be able to cook. One material that can do all of these things, the same way iron and steel are seriously used as the basis for practically all of Cantrian life past the most primitive level. People might fight wars for access to that. No one would need anything in exchange for it, and there's only so many resource slots that can be used to mine it at once. Call it unobtanium or something.

You know what might work for that? Some kind of fuel. Concentrate new additions to the game on things that require fuel somehow, fuel which runs out, rendering the object useless over time. And suddenly the value of places that can produce gas or whatever shoots heavenwards.

EDIT 2: Wait, okay, this is starting to develop into full on suggestion territory, but I had a thought. Titanium. Titanium has to be extracted from the rutile or ilmenite it's found in via the Kroll process, which requires chlorine and propane. Then it's combined into an alloy, usually with aluminum or iron. This turns it into what was for a long time basically the most awesome metal on earth. Titanium could basically be Stage Four of Cantrian development (the first three stages being bone, iron, and steel). It's weird an arbitrary that you can't make weapons or shields out of it, but it's also weird and arbitrary that our cars have infinite fuel and I think the gameplay function of having a non-iron based resource that is super valuable for civilization building but not valuable at all for making war can trump realism. Cantr has plenty of weird quirks because they make for good gameplay, that's fine. Titanium vehicles, tools and machines can wear out slower and be more effective, even if otherwise they're mostly just carbon-copies of the steel stuff. Plus, new stuff that's added can be added to be usable only with titanium-aluminum alloys.

Another idea: Electronics. Dramatically increase the utility of electronics in the game. This, in turn, increases the utility of gold and platinum by a lot. Electronics can have all kinds of potential uses, although unfortunately most of them require some new systems to be implemented. For example: If, in the weather system, a system of light and dark is also introduced (either by night and day or, more conveniently, have Cantr get absurdly cloudy so that it's actually hard to see), you could also introduce lights of various sorts. When it's dark, work goes slower on just about everything. Miss chances go up against humans and animals. You can make a torch with some fuel, a wood or bone shaft, and some sort of wrapping, but those run out after a few days and you have to keep replacing them. You can make a lantern, but that has to constantly have new fuel added. You can also make an electric lamp, which requires no fuel because Cantr. If you make animal products decay and vanish over time, you could then have a refrigerator that halts or delays the process. Computers could be used to transmit notes the same way radios can transmit voice. You'd use a note with the computer, there would be a dropdown menu of all computers within range, and you could send a note to that computer. Instantly, the note is copied and sent to the computer. Someone can then create a copy of the note from the receiving computer. Computers would basically be bins for notes. Some kind of GPS guidance system that magically makes the vehicles it's installed in go faster. Cameras that work like one-way windows, and which can be fed through some sort of transmitter so that you can see the feed even from several towns away. Electronic ovens that allow you to cook things faster. Electronic machines that that work faster than manual ones. Robot butlers. Plenty of room for the expansion of electronics.

[NostalgicMelody7]

That would definitely be interesting... maybe, at random places, we start to see these deposits of some strange, fantastic metal that makes beautiful and dazzling jewelry, and stronger weapons, but you can only harvest so much of it before it runs out. I could see a lot of conflict coming from that. Beautiful, wonderous conflict >:D

[Henkie]

So basically: Why is there no war in cantr? Because people can't play chars exactly like humans... Whoopdidoo

[Doug R.]

That would definitely be interesting... maybe, at random places, we start to see these deposits of some strange, fantastic metal that makes beautiful and dazzling jewelry, and stronger weapons, but you can only harvest so much of it before it runs out. I could see a lot of conflict coming from that. Beautiful, wonderous conflict >:D

And those of us who understand the "long-game" in Cantr let others fight over it, forge it into useful objects, and then just wait until those characters drop dead and pick their cool objects off the ground

[Bowser]

The game is entirely different than it was in the 200's. Different groups trying to establish themselves and build up a town before another group did. I do believe there was more conflict back then as the world was taking shape

[NostalgicMelody7]

That would definitely be interesting... maybe, at random places, we start to see these deposits of some strange, fantastic metal that makes beautiful and dazzling jewelry, and stronger weapons, but you can only harvest so much of it before it runs out. I could see a lot of conflict coming from that. Beautiful, wonderous conflict >:D

And those of us who understand the "long-game" in Cantr let others fight over it, forge it into useful objects, and then just wait until those characters drop dead and pick their cool objects off the ground

Does that mean I'm at a disadvantage? xD

[Black Canyon]

That would definitely be interesting... maybe, at random places, we start to see these deposits of some strange, fantastic metal that makes beautiful and dazzling jewelry, and stronger weapons, but you can only harvest so much of it before it runs out. I could see a lot of conflict coming from that. Beautiful, wonderous conflict >:D

This is an intriguing idea. A resource... highly valuable, but limited and random. By limited and random I mean one that suddenly emerges at a particular location(s) and once harvested or gathered is gone. And perhaps consumable as well. This would be important, because iron and steel never go away and once you are in possession it is yours forever unless the items made from it rot into the dirt. However, if the resource was one that once used is gone and therefore will need to be obtained again, it would continue to have much value in cantr.

[Stormoffires]

The game is entirely different than it was in the 200's. Different groups trying to establish themselves and build up a town before another group did. I do believe there was more conflict back then as the world was taking shape

those where the fun days, exploring the unknown. I have recently returned to cantr and have not had a chance to get ingame yet but from my readings in the forum it sounds like Cantr "pants" have become to big for the person filling it. With empty towns everywhere and the lack of struggle. I personally feel people most enjoyed cantr in the begging because of the struggle to survive and establish oneself, as well as the simplicity of it. I remember dabbling with cantr a couple years ago before i shipped out, and thought how much more advance and complex it has become. I didnt have the time then to sit down and relearn everything but now i have the time and I am curious to see where cantr is at now. If this is like any other "sandbox"/"user-created world" game, it will have vast inactive areas duh to drop outs and the lack of interest in developing an area that is inactive. the folks at Cantr should introduce a new "world" and not expand via islands on it, just set however many and leave it to be. People will spread and fill but if there is to much space they will die out and it will become another vast empty waist land. Without a huge desire for war in this game there is now real regulation to expansion and growth. If the new world was a good balanced size, with resources will placed you would a greater chance of war. This is why you hear people say "well i saw towns rise up and hundreds of people fight" but that was during growth and expansion. id love to see a new world, it would bring back the old days of wars, and companies, and lords fighting for land and resources.

[Voltenion]

Cantr "pants" have become to big for the person filling it.

I blame Fu island on this. That island has a retarded size. The game should either be all on Fu island or it should just be deleted. And if every language started playing in Fu island I still have the impression it would be too big. There's no social interaction when every town has a gap of 5 ingame years between them.

[viktor]

we seem to forget
just because the world is as big as f@(& it is still our choices in game that spread us out.
some wars get prevented because sometimes the authorities are too up on their game and squash them before the happen.
other than religion, there is also eccentricity and greed, malice and discontent that could be reasons for wars, maybe one city is tight with their resources and their neighbour is fed up and does not want to go 6 towns to trade but would rather conquer their tight neighbour and have the resources right there at their leasure.
IF THERE WAS ENOUGH ROLEPLAY ONE LEADER MAY DECLARE WAR ON ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE THE OTHER COUNTRYS LEADER STOLE THIER LOVER! ever see the movie troy?
wars only need excuses to start and people wanting to use those excuses and gamble the odds by warring.
planet size and resource abundance when the other things are considered, are actually quite negligible in a game like cantr.

the game engine is in no way to blame for lack of war, the blame falls in it's entirity upon us as players. if there is no war it is because either nobody wants to have a war, or nobody has an excuse for war, or we are just too lazy and afraid of loosing one or two of our chars because of war or attempting to prepare for one.

i seriously have been in the s#!^ disturber position a handful of times

i successfully catalized a war based on politics, territory and ideology, why? because i was not afraid of risking the char even though they were very valuable

i did die in an attempt to get the one nation to conquer another.. got executed at home dammit lol i liked the char i did some good roleplay and was in a good position in society, i considered this char valuable, lost in the risk but serves as an example of the authorities were on their toes. my reasonS for trying to make that war were, my char liked the land and had hoped to advance himself through the potential aquisition, and also my char wanted to revitalise the country he lived in and worked for, and to make them look strong because there were some other strong neighbors they were not friendly with but could not war either.

i did form an organisation over a region and prepare for a war (which never happened because the enemy fizzled out and the threat was gone), would have been based on exadurated rumors and selected reports of bad encounters by travelers, reason my char wated it was because they were over protective and though they were kind they also took any and all threats very very seriously.

i did have another war in the works, but alas, i think i was tired or depressed for a while and a couple chars starved including the one i was doing this with, so the war never happened, the war was based on extreeme fascism, paranoia, and narcissism
otherwise this war would have happened


all examples that wars CAN be started for reasons that have nothing to do with world size or resource abundance. i have also had a lesser but still involved role in a few wars that also were not effected or had anything to do with world size or resource abundance.

[Nalaris]

Does it count as a Gish Gallop if it's unintentional?

[Chris]

There is little war because too few people are playing, and they are spread out over a huge world. Most towns are empty, including many towns that were built up. Cantr is dying. Maybe if resources had been implemented differently from the start, the game would have had more conflict. But doing anything like that now is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.