Discussion on Proposals

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Joshuamonkey
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Discussion on Proposals

Postby Joshuamonkey » Fri May 24, 2019 4:30 am

This thread is for discussion on proposals presented in viewtopic.php?f=1&p=591080.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Wolfsong » Fri May 24, 2019 4:34 am

Transparency is always a step in the right direction.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Fri May 24, 2019 8:33 am

Can you please clarify what the term "proposal" means? Does this refer only to player/staff interactions such as complaints or rule breaking? Is it another word for "suggestions" such as adding a tool to the game or making a change in the mechanics?

Two days later: Is there a better place to post this question? Maybe I missed an explanation of what a 'proposal' is someplace? Who monitors this thread and answers questions?
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Joshuamonkey » Wed May 29, 2019 8:19 pm

Anything here that says GAB and isn't about individual players should be a proposal.
This may not be a comprehensive list, but I think a good summary.
Joshuamonkey wrote:Decisions changing how decisions are made - GAB and GAC
Decisions changing game rules and significant policies - GAB
Decisions that are likely to have strong opposition (even by a few players) - GAB

Staff Organization
  • Decisions involving existence of a department. - GAB
  • Decisions regarding the scope or responsibilities of a department. - GAB
Resources
  • Decisions that affect what players and characters have built up previously (basically the same thing as a decision likely to have opposition). - GAB
  • Decisions that require programming changes should be approved by the Programming Chair or department.
Programming
  • Decisions that affect PD processes should be approved by the PD Chair.
  • Decisions that affect the mechanics of the game should be approved by the RD Chair.
  • Decisions that affect marketing tools and the look of the front page should be approved by the Marketing Chair.
Players
  • Bannings and account lockings of more than 3 days. - GAB
  • Policies for what is allowed or punished and what not (game rules). - GAB
Communications
  • Decisions to announce mechanics of the game should be approved by the RD Chair.
  • Decisions to provide rule clarifications should be approved by the PD Chair.
Languages
  • Change of language of the rules and official terms or policies on cantr.net or the Webzine should be approved the same way that changes to these are approved. However, the Languages Chair oversees appropriate translations.
Marketing
  • Decisions to mention mechanics of the game publicly should be approved by the RD Chair.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Thu May 30, 2019 8:45 am

Thanks for your very thorough and well-organized reply. I think it will be a really useful reference resource.

For anyone (like me) who isn't familiar with the acronyms:
GAB = Game Administration Board
GAC = Game Advisory Council

Info on these and other governing bodies can be found here: http://wiki.cantr.net/index.php/Cantr_Organizational_Constitution
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Wolfsong » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:00 pm

Interesting new proposals.

I had a few questions and concerns, though - first, why is a criteria of joining the player's board staff activity? If they are a member of staff, they are no longer a player and no longer have a player perspective. Also, I would advise caution re: donations that allow board membership. While a good way to cover any money problems, it turns players into shareholders, and shareholders will want much more control over the direction of the game than a player with no material investment would. (Can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on relative values. It means staff will have to consider financial loss or gain when implementing features.)

Also, what does the Volunteer Agreement look like? When will a copy be posted publicly?

Edit: In terms of the mechanics of donation, I would advocate (from an owner's perspective) using Patreon. Recurring donators can be part of this player board, and because of the ease of autorenewing a subscription, Cantr will probably get forgetful patrons contributing more than they would have otherwise. Plus, it feels more legitimate and secure than the direct through PayPal link.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Joshuamonkey » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:08 am

Thank you for your prompt analysis and questions.

Wolfsong wrote:First, why is a criteria of joining the player's board staff activity? If they are a member of staff, they are no longer a player and no longer have a player perspective.

I understand this concern and address it in the proposal. People don't stop being human when they become staff anymore then they stop being players. I hope to decrease the distinction between players and staff (which is a subset of players). Volunteering on staff is simply another way to contribute, and players shouldn't be punished for volunteering on staff. In fact, ideally all veteran active players would be on staff. :) To put it another way, contributing on staff in many cases is even more valuable to Cantr then advertising Cantr or donating and we're happy for them to focus on staff work. There is, however, the possibility of becoming a councilor on the Player Board, and this isn't obtained by staff activity. At least one councilor (such as the elected Player Advocate) must publicly state why they agree to decisions by the Player Board. I'll also cite this paragraph from the proposal:
Active work in Cantr staff
Work in Cantr staff is no less important than other types of contributions, and we want staff to have an opportunity to participate in or give feedback on all public (or significant) staff decisions, even those outside their department. Staff activity is recorded on a triweekly basis. See Proposal 2 - Staff Activity for more information. To ensure that the player board is not simply a staff board, staff activity or position does not award the position of councilor. Furthermore, we encourage staff to share Cantr as well for the opportunity to be a councilor on the player board.


Wolfsong wrote:Also, I would advise caution re: donations that allow board membership. While a good way to cover any money problems, it turns players into shareholders, and shareholders will want much more control over the direction of the game than a player with no material investment would. (Can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on relative values. It means staff will have to consider financial loss or gain when implementing features.)

Good insight, and indeed I hope that players feel more invested in the game. It was important to me to provide a meaningful opportunity for players to make decisions. Now changes to the game of Cantr are in player's hands, to a large extent at least.

Wolfsong wrote:Also, what does the Volunteer Agreement look like? When will a copy be posted publicly?

The proposals, with links, are listed at this forum post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28564&p=591854#p591854
The Volunteer Agreement is found at this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gt- ... S39PM/edit

Wolfsong wrote:In terms of the mechanics of donation, I would advocate (from an owner's perspective) using Patreon. Recurring donators can be part of this player board, and because of the ease of autorenewing a subscription, Cantr will probably get forgetful patrons contributing more than they would have otherwise. Plus, it feels more legitimate and secure than the direct through PayPal link.

Thank you. I've been thinking about Patreon though haven't set it up before. That will likely be a good option (for now PayPal until Patreon is set up).
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Wolfsong » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:11 am

Derp. Viewing from my phone, I couldn't access the Google Drive at first, but it seems to be working now.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Joshuamonkey » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:31 pm

Recording of recent voice meeting:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/174t9Dt ... sp=sharing

Notes from meeting:
  • Clarified the Player Board and suggestion/voting process.
  • Find a better way to donate money.

Folder with all public meetings: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/2/fold ... bxLtPIx-IF

To join the Player Board, you can use this form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... g/viewform
This is particularly for recording sharing or advertising Cantr, but it can also be used to identify donors where necessary.

See channel #player_board. Users with the Discord role "contributors" will be able to send messages in this channel.
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Wolfsong » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:23 am

This may have been covered in the meeting, but in the volunteer agreement, I believe it mentions something about how ownership of code reverts back to someone after leaving staff - couldn't a disgruntled staff member demand their code be pulled from the game? Or have I read it wrong?
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Re: Discussion on Proposals

Postby Joshuamonkey » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:25 am

This could be stated better, but for the sentence in question:
I may retain access to material I created or worked on myself when I am no longer a member of Cantr staff.

This refers to accessing ideas, notes, code if separate, etc. that are solely the work of the staff member. This doesn't refer to ownership of the work. The previous sentence does:
Any material that I create and provide to Cantr staff (including code, ideas, documentation) will become the property of Cantr.


Wolfsong wrote:couldn't a disgruntled staff member demand their code be pulled from the game? Or have I read it wrong?

It's good we have this agreement. :) And while this is new, there was a previous agreement that all programmers signed to Jos, which includes a similar statement.
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