Why Cantr failed

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:49 am

Seko - I'm the one who said I would reset, if possible, and many of the things you mentioned are reasons why I think the game is dying and reasons why I would reset.

What I call "The Age of Exploration" is over. Everything has been found, every place has been mapped, every resource and item has been discovered and made. Everything is easy and, frankly, uninteresting. Kind of like RL today in developed countries and I notice that there is a real emphasis on art in RL now because it is the only place (unless you are an inventor or medical researcher) where RL people can do something new and interesting.

Art in Cantr is difficult, though, because it is like the land of the blind and deaf. Characters can't see the art (except for a few note images) or hear the music or watch movies or TV shows or dances. They can only read descriptions of things. So most art doesn't really work.

I don't think Cantr can be fixed because there isn't really anything interesting left to do.

It is also becoming more and more obvious to me that there are a lot more female than male characters and I think that means there are a lot more female players than male players (at least in the English speaking areas). And I think this is one major reason for the lack of aggression in the game.

I only have to look at the "I AM" page to be able to tell which players are female, because most of their characters are focused on love and romantic relationships (or the lack thereof). Several of my characters are in all female towns - there might be one very old, inactive male. And I have a feeling that many of the male characters are played by women players. I don't want to sound sexist but I think it does affect the dynamics of the game a lot.

Maybe, given enough time, something interesting will morph out of all this. C'est la vie, said the old folks. It goes to show you never can tell.
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curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:45 am

I doubt I'd start again now after a reset. I doubt the same numbers would be reflected after one.
But... you know what happens in civilised countries when they get bored, don't you... they begin to elect those on the right wing of politics... warmongers... they begin to persecute difference, and they do so by mass.
This sadly will never happen in Cantr because 1. the few who chose to play a 'character of difference' wouldn't for very long because they'd just be killed by whatever regime was persecuting them and, 2. Sleepers... I am sick to bloody death of sleepers. I honestly think sleepers should be policed in some fashion and just got rid of.

Basically.. we are back to the OP... Cantr need people, and it needs people to play far more effectively than they do.
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:11 am

curious wrote:But... you know what happens in civilised countries when they get bored, don't you... they begin to elect those on the right wing of politics... warmongers... they begin to persecute difference, and they do so by mass.
This sadly will never happen in Cantr because 1. the few who chose to play a 'character of difference' wouldn't for very long because they'd just be killed by whatever regime was persecuting them.

Almost correct. We don't have warmongers (which is what we need, ironically), we have anti-warmongers who are persecuting those who are not positive. Anyone who isn't warm and friendly and kind and helpful and cheerful gets ignored until they wander off into the wilderness to starve. Anyone who is aggressive or subversive is killed or jailed.

None of my women characters were up to the task, so I made one male character with the idea that he would lure people into a revolution of some sort and I just can't figure out how to do it. If he even hints to someone that there is reason for dissatisfaction, he will probably be killed. And what does he have to be dissatisfied about, anyway? He is literally surrounded by kind, generous women in every town (isn't there a Star Trek episode like that?). Should he try to create a cult of Amazons? Maybe he needs to be a lot older and more powerful.

Maybe I just don't have the talent for playing devious characters. I'm definitely not a power monger in RL.
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curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:39 am

We're not driven as players so much to play these characters. Maybe, there should be an attribute at spawn, not unlike skills or strength that states personality type? Even broadly speaking, and for instance... militant, authoritarian, passive-aggressive, good, evil, sub/Dom, gay... whatever.
Of course then people would have to do a bit of research perhaps to play it and that would detract form their ingratiating utopian life-style. That won't happen either.
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Jos Elkink
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Jos Elkink » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:54 am

curious wrote:Even broadly speaking, and for instance... militant, authoritarian, passive-aggressive, good, evil, sub/Dom, gay... whatever.


Well, yes, but not defined by the system.

I think one thing that happens is that too many players wait until they see where they spawn and what the town is like, before they define what kind of personality they are playing? It would be better to decide up front, and stick to it :-)

Personally, I keep thinking that most of this discussion has only to do with population density, but I might be totally wrong. All my characters are now in towns of up to about five characters - that will never allow for interesting social and political dynamics.
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:14 am

Jos Elkink wrote:I think one thing that happens is that too many players wait until they see where they spawn and what the town is like, before they define what kind of personality they are playing? It would be better to decide up front, and stick to it :-)

I agree with this, and I have said before that it might be useful to define your character's major attributes 'before' you hit go. Sure, this could see a further decrease to in-game characters, but they would, if nothing else, be a lot more interesting.
noturson
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby noturson » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:53 pm

PaintedbyRoses wrote:I only have to look at the "I AM" page to be able to tell which players are female, because most of their characters are focused on love and romantic relationships (or the lack thereof). Several of my characters are in all female towns - there might be one very old, inactive male. And I have a feeling that many of the male characters are played by women players. I don't want to sound sexist but I think it does affect the dynamics of the game a lot.


I've known my share of aggressive female characters who were not focused on romance. They did not make it past their thirties, but they were a fun bunch. I miss those days. The problem with romance is that, when newspawns see it's the only 'interesting' thing that the game has to offer, currently? That's what they search for. What their aim for the game becomes. It's not a bad thing to want a lovey-dovey plot with your charas, yet when it's a cycle that has been ongoing for years? Yeah, no. It's time to stop.

curious wrote:Maybe, there should be an attribute at spawn, not unlike skills or strength that states personality type? Even broadly speaking, and for instance... militant, authoritarian, passive-aggressive, good, evil, sub/Dom, gay... whatever.


This would be taking away some of the freedom Cantr provides its players. Plus, you can be an authoritarian, passive-aggressive, militant gay switch anytime. :wink: Also, warmongers do not do well. Stick to piracy like the rest of us! :lol:

Going back on the topic, however, I feel like Cantr is becoming a sort of 'safe space' bubble of sorts. No one can do anything to help it- everyone must stick to the status quo, or else. Peace, or else. No one should speak up, or else. While you could start building a character in order to change this, make a wild society that defies the utopia in question, it's unlikely we have enough active players with bold characters who will be up to the task. So, Cantr fails to be interesting to newer players. To returning ones, even. To anyone who wants more than just romance or a mindless, sleepy worker. Romance, relationships, things that have built the world- are now breaking it. Do we need more backstabbing? Yes. Yes, we do. Get to it, y'all.
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:05 pm

noturson wrote:Stick to piracy like the rest of us! :lol:

It's a start... I vote the new character screen has a checkbox: pirate, non-pirate...
I can't wait to be overrun with all the warm and fuzzy Johnny Depps...
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sherman
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby sherman » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:35 pm

I tried to start an empire but that literally failed due lack of interest from other people. It's been some time since I tried, maybe a year now or more but in nutshell people didn't have time for it, were just too happy about current situation or one was even honest and said is too lazy.

Naturally you can't make bigger conclusions from this but it's safe to say our current playerbase is somewhat passive and perhaps it's true that there's lot of females. Would definitely make sense if they don't really care about such things. Or maybe we just got too many lazy people who don't bother do stuff if it requires too much effort like wars and politics often do.

Now about war.. Honestly most towns are unable to wage any at the moment. Even larger towns lack armed people or active enough to do something if attacked. If they can't defend themselves how they are going to attack anyone? Honestly I even know cases where next town is attacked but the town can't help them due... let's just say for various reasons.

Since I have played over the years different war games on web and lead alliances etc. I can say one thing that definitely is one reason for lack of any major wars. That's co-operation. Since we are only tied to game mechanics if you want to follow rules and ways to communicate in game are limited... It will be hard to have high organisation needed or planning to pull of any major attacks. And really, nobody ever really uses game mechanics on those other games, they use Skype or Discord or something similar. Now of course Cantr isn't a pure war game but I think my opinion still stands, out of the game methods are simply too powerful for communication with people from other timezones.

It's not even all about using ooc information, it's also about easy of use... I doubt many are willing to bother to plan something if it takes a week (like one leader meeting for one of my chars) when you could have done same in less than hour in Skype. And here we get to the bottom of the problem, people tend to go from where fence is lowest
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
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Neva
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:51 am

(This post has been edited by Neva due to misunderstandings.)

I don't think it's a bad thing to create only female characters who seek nothing but attention and romance.

I don't think Cantr failed or is failing.
Last edited by Neva on Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yuna
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Yuna » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 am

Neva wrote:I've even encountered a player who alters the personality of the characters according the male character whom they want to be involved with theirs.


Do you not believe that a character is able to grow and mature as a person would IRL? I mean, for example, people changed based on their friends IRL so why would that be any different in game? Someone who used to do hardcore drugs can come clean and become a preacher. I know, IRL, my personality comes off differently to different people. Could be the same for characters IG. I know I have met some characters with one of mine, then met the same characters with another of mine and their personality was completely different depending on who they were interacting with.


And if it is a new player, as you had said, give them the time to learn and grow too. Not everyone had been playing for years and years and is able to please all of the trolls that are here to judge.

Rant over.
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:37 am

I think a gross personality change is a no... just a flat out no..! Maybe if it follows a major head injury or something.

We are far too judgemental on this forum.I include myself in that, by the way.

I have seen many changes to characters that still fit within personality... some grow up a bit... others become embittered... some become increasingly isolated, and so forth. There are lots of in-game stimuli for 'change' and I don't feel I can have an opinion as to how people interpret them.

I don't see any of these in-game character changes as why Cantr failed. I am however, beginning to suspect (in general, and I wouldn;t attempt to single any one character type out) that some characters are becoming less responsive to in-game events and driven more by our OOC.

Get into the head of your character... don't fuel your character with the contents 'your' head... change is possible... embrace it... it's actually one of the more believable elements of the game for me...
...I'm more bitter about it taking two days to make a kebab.
Last edited by curious on Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Genie » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:24 am

Everyone is entitled with their own opinions and tastes which may change in time. Also Ooc and IC can vary widely. I mostly try to not forget that we all play our beloved Cantr together and its existential balance matters me a lot even though this consideration isn't always easy. There's no perfect player or character but
the game standards and rules we can stick around.

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Neva
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Neva » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:20 pm

(This post has been edited by Neva due to misunderstandings.)

I don't think it's a bad thing to create only female characters who seek nothing but attention and romance.

I don't think Cantr failed or is failing.
Last edited by Neva on Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:54 pm

Getting messy now...
I'm still not seeing anything in the criticisms of characters that really can't be accommodated IC.

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