Why Cantr failed

[cutecuddlydirewolf]

I know I already suggested this on the Discord channel, but: writers. People who enjoy writing and developing characters are the perfect demographic.

[PaintedbyRoses]

I know I already suggested this on the Discord channel, but: writers. People who enjoy writing and developing characters are the perfect demographic.

Yes, exactly. We need to think outside of the "game" box because people who love games don't usually love Cantr but people who love stories do (probably, I'm just guessing).

Maybe a poll of all players asking what they like and don't like about Cantr would be useful. Also, asking what they think would draw in other players. It should be a poll sent out to every player and linked on the sign in page, not just posted here.

[Chris]

If you want improv theatre, you don't need mechanics for hematite crushing and fuel consumption. All you need is a forum or a chat room. However, the origin story of the original Cantr suggests that the simulation aspect is an integral part of Jos' vision.

I would like to see Cantr become a better game, and the first step is to find other games that are successful and have at least some overlap with Cantr in what they try to achieve. (Someone is going to say that Cantr is completely unique and can't be compared to anything whatsoever, so I will preemptively roll my eyes.)

[curious]

But, surely... Cantr is completely unique and can't be compared to anything whatsoever..!

[jfrizz51423]

But, surely... Cantr is completely unique and can't be compared to anything whatsoever..!

Cantr is definitely unique and there is nothing quite like it, but it can definitely be compared to other games!

Also, I think it's a great idea to try and get writers to join the game, but there are gamers out there too who would be interested in this game.

I mean, take myself for example. I'm not a writer and have never been interested much in writing. But I have always been interested in sandbox style games. I love games where you can permanently change the world around you, and where the world is your oyster and there are no rules. I also love playing with people though, so I've always loved online games where I can chat with other people, and play the game with them. I have always been on the search for a game where I could that the world is effected and changed by the groups of people who play the game.

Certain games come to mind:
minecraft - the ultimate free form world, and there are tons of roleplay servers that simulate detailed societies with governers/kings and citizens.
second life - the ultimate game for people to chat with and meet other people. there are also plenty of intense roleplay servers on second life since a lot of people enjoy that kind of thing
the sims - although this is single player, this is a game where people can directly change the world and life of the characters in it. a lot of people simply enjoy creating and witnessing the drama that happens in their sim's lives. you have to be creative to make it real interesting
the internet - take the time to do a quick google search. today i searched online "mmo games with player politics" and there are tons of people who just NEED a game with more freedom, but can't scratch that itch with the current games out there

In my opinion, the biggest adjustment for people is not talking out of character. But there are plenty of games similar to Cantr. Just most of them aren't text based while Cantr is.

[curious]

Sorry... I was just being facetious with that last post but I do hear your points and accept them... Cantr is more of a literary experience than a gaming one... a whole lot more sedate than many game experiences... to be honest? This is why I like it and will always return, as long as it's up and running.

I am no 'writer'... I write a bit of poetry (more as a therapy)... I work at home and Cantr usually just sits in a tab and I visit it frequently enough to keep the plot sometimes.

Ironically, if I am not at my laptop, I am usually trying to kill people in 1st person shooters and the difference? I get to co-op with other online friends and have a chat.

I still think Cantr will attract players but I will repeat my concerns that an 'ease of release' for one or two characters would make the game more attractive... yes as well as many other ideas that have been mooted, but this is what has killed two separate playing sprees for me... all or nothing.

[PaintedbyRoses]

I agree that some gamers would enjoy Cantr but not most of them. Cantr has already been marketed, over time, to gamers with, I think, little success.

The reason I think it should be marketed to writers is not just because they would like it but because I think they would have the imagination and interest in adding drama to the game. Hopefully, not just romantic drama, but the kind of drama from the past where there were factions like clans, tribes, religious groups, military organizations, etc. The kind of groups who cause trouble either by trying to take over an area or, because they are feared, others organize against them.

It's your basic movie stuff but conflict is what drama is all about. It takes one charismatic character who is dedicated to a cause and others who will join him or her. That just doesn't seem to happen anymore. I think it's because nobody needs or wants anything they can't get pretty easily. Everything is too available.

I think all the things that are subject to rot or damage now should become unrepairable so that, eventually, they will crumble into nothing. This would at least reduce the overabundance of objects and resources somewhat and, possibly, lead to dramas over resources.

[Slowness_Incarnate]

That would just add to the annoying petty things to argue about as if there isn't enough "You slept with my man!" drama going on.

Can we please not ruin the game and its dynamics for the tiny populace that we have left?

[cutecuddlydirewolf]

That would just add to the annoying petty things to argue about as if there isn't enough "You slept with my man!" drama going on.

Can we please not ruin the game and its dynamics for the tiny populace that we have left?

I think the idea is that with more actual conflict, the petty drama would become less and less. Characters with nothing better to do than argue make for drama.

[PaintedbyRoses]

I think the idea is that with more actual conflict, the petty drama would become less and less. Characters with nothing better to do than argue make for drama.

Right. As I said, hopefully not romantic drama. Conflict is a much better word. I should have used it instead of drama in most instances to make my intention more clear.

[curious]

My characters are not sleeping with anyone, and of the two that had the potential to become criminal masterminds... they just kinda developed a soft spot for people.

[PaintedbyRoses]

My characters are not sleeping with anyone, and of the two that had the potential to become criminal masterminds... they just kinda developed a soft spot for people.

Smack those potential criminal masterminds around a little bit. Get them motivated to commit dire deeds for the safety of their loved ones. Cantr needs more evil. EVIL!

Three out of four of my characters don't even know more than two people. And the forth is stuck in an area that drips with sweetness and light. The most she could do is go on a killing rampage and I don't think I could do that unless she was defending her pseudo-family group.

[curious]

To be honest, and this may be somewhat more back on topic... the way I am playing the game at the minute makes me more a part of the problem rather than the solution. Because I have had to quit in the past (and I do mean 'had; to). I am simply not bringing the creativity to the game that it requires.

I have 'heart-sink' moments when I see a couple even lit up because I know, there will literally be very little to nothing that I even need to bother my arse/their arse about.
It's true... it's way too easy to sit in game and no the bare minimum and this is why I say it's a player issue... I suspect that many people (for whatever reason) simply find themselves in the same game place.

I honestly donl;t know where the audience for recruitment is now either. I mean, what... try and get people in from Second Life, so that we can all sit here and complain about appalling and even more shallow role play?

[Jos Elkink]

I am simply not bringing the creativity to the game that it requires. I have 'heart-sink' moments when I see a couple even lit up because I know, there will literally be very little to nothing that I even need to bother my arse/their arse about.
It's true... it's way too easy to sit in game and no the bare minimum and this is why I say it's a player issue... I suspect that many people (for whatever reason) simply find themselves in the same game place.

I certainly know the feeling. In the beginning I played characters who became town leaders, journalists, entrepreneurs, military officers, but now I usually play people who like to quietly play in a corner so as not to have to do too much work and not to have to read too long streams of events. This is just because I don't have the time or energy in real life to dedicate to playing the game.

I don't think that's a bad thing, though. It's no fun if every town has a leader and one or two citizens - wars and leadership and economics are much more interesting when the population is much larger. So we need both, active, creative, players, but also people who just play the common people ... That's how, in the design, I kind of thought about allowing 15 characters: so you can have one or two real active leaders, but also contribute 13 characters just to do simple stuff, like always digging the same thing and selling it on, for example, to form the population of other towns.

I guess some of the extra work also comes from the rule that no two chars can be in the same town. We need this rule, unfortunately, to have some control over the level of cooperation between characters of the same players, but in the first years of the game, it did not exist, and I had about five characters in the same town, and that of course means a lot less reading to play each of them actively.

One thing that in my view hasn't really worked well, but where I suspect most Cantr players are quite happy with the feature, is that too much in each town happens in the town square, and nowadays even with the ability to observe the town square from inside buildings. My original idea - which I now realise can't really work - was more that people would typically be inside buildings, and therefore only observe those conversations that are really relevant to them. So, I'd have a "building materials shop", I'd be inside all the time, I'd have contracts with building material suppliers who come to me to bring their stuff, and I'd have customers dropping in and out and talking to me about the trade. And I'd focus my gameplay on operating the shop. But instead, most people are not that focused on one trade, but also all conversation is in the town square, so if I'm instead the policy officer, I now also have to read every conversation that building materials shop has with its customers. That leads to a lot of reading that is irrelevant to me in my role, but that other characters in the town will assume I have read. The result is that I now have my characters avoid busy towns, which is quite contrary to what I hoped would be the dynamic.

Mind you, it's a simple design flaw too, since it just couldn't work: since we're not online at the same time, the shop owner couldn't respond to customer queries ... So it couldn't work, but to me that's a weakness of the game. I am now playing quiet characters in quiet towns, but I would have preferred to play more serious roles (businessmen, military, etc.) in much bigger towns, if only I would not have to read everything else that goes on there as well.

[PaintedbyRoses]

Someone mentioned that it used to be possible to color-code the words of the different characters. I think that would make it so much easier to skim through lots of conversation by focusing in on characters you usually talk to while quickly passing over long conversations between two friends, for instance.

Can we get that back? With lots of different color choices for big towns. Pretty please?

And you know what? If a color could be assigned to any whispers to your own character, that would be awesome.